Ep 167 - Overcoming Introvert Shame with Peter Vogt

Do you ever feel like you're running against the wind as an introvert?

This episode of The Quiet And Strong Podcast, with host David Hall and guest Peter Vogt, The Introvert Advocate, will shed light on the unique struggles introverts face and the misconceptions that often accompany introversion. Listeners will learn about the concept of introvert shame, the difference between shame and guilt, and the powerful strategies introverts can utilize to embrace their identity with confidence.

Prepare to discover Peter's four pillars of introvert well-being and how you can leverage writing and reflection as key strengths in your own journey. Tune in to understand why it's not just okay to be an introvert, but why your introverted qualities are essential to society.

Join us to explore the art of living authentically as an introvert, and be strong.

Episode Link: QuietandStrong.com/167

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Books mentioned in this episode:

Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking  by Susan Cain
Books by Brene Brown

Get Peter's Book:  The Introvert Manifesto

Peter Vogt is The Introvert Advocate, and he's been researching and teaching about introverts and introversion for more than 20 years. He leads the premier online course and coaching program for introverts — “Be the Introvert You Are! The Introvert’s Way to a Healthy, Happy Life” — and he's the author of The Introvert Manifesto: Introverts Illuminated, Extraverts Enlightened. One other important thing: He's an introvert himself (for 56 years now, and counting!). To learn more, visit IntrovertInsights.com.

Website: IntrovertInsights.com

Social Media: LinkedIn | Instagram | Facebook | Youtube

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Contact the Host of the Quiet and Strong Podcast:

David Hall

Author, Speaker, Educator, Podcaster

quietandstrong.com
Gobio.link/quietandstrong
david [at] quietandstrong.com

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Minding Your Time: Time Management, Productivity, and Success, Especially for Introverts

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Transcript

Peter Vogt [00:00:07]:
The way that I look at it, I guess, bottom line is that instead of running into the wind as an introvert, trying to become extroverted or fight your introversion. It's all this running into the wind. Realize that there's a wind at your back. And if you play to your strengths and you understand what they are as an introvert, run with the wind, you know. Sometimes we all have to run against it. Don't get me wrong. As a general rule, find the way the wind is blowing and and run with it so that you have a really healthy, happy life.

David Hall [00:00:47]:
Hello, and welcome to episode 167 of the Quiet and Strong podcast, especially for introverts. I'm your host, David Hall, and the creator of quiet and strong dot com. It's a weekly podcast dedicated to understanding the strengths and needs of introverts. Introversion is not something to fix, but to be embraced. Normally, we'll air each episode on a Monday. Be sure to subscribe on your favorite platform. Leave a review or a rating. That will mean a lot to me.

David Hall [00:01:14]:
Tell a friend about the podcast. Help get the word out there that introversion is a beautiful thing. Peter Vogt is the introvert advocate, and he's been researching and teaching about introverts and introversion for more than 20 years. He leads the premier online course and coaching program for introverts. Be the introvert you are, the introvert's way to a healthy, happy life, and he's the author of the introvert manifesto, introverts illuminated, extroverts enlightened, and, of course, he's an introvert himself. Alright. Well, welcome to the Quiet and Strong podcast, Peter. Peter, so great to have you on today.

Peter Vogt [00:01:54]:
Thanks, David. Thanks for having me.

David Hall [00:01:56]:
And we've been connected on LinkedIn for for some time. You know? I enjoy the post that you put there, and it's it's it's great to to meet you and talk with you today.

Peter Vogt [00:02:04]:
Thank you. Thank you. It's likewise, it's good to meet you too.

David Hall [00:02:08]:
Alright. So tell us about your journey, you know, through introversion, and now you call yourself the introvert advocate. Tell us about that.

Peter Vogt [00:02:16]:
Well, the long and the short of it is I grew up in Northern Minnesota. I'm still living I live here now again. And when I was growing up, like so many other introverts out there, I'm sure, I sort of came to the conclusion that something must be wrong with me or at least that it was possible. And the reason I say that is because when I was growing up, I noticed that I like to do things that other people did not seem to like to do. And that the things that other people seem to really enjoy, I didn't find fun at all, especially kinda I guess, when it got to high school. But even when I was a real little kid, you know, I'd be playing baseball in the yard all by myself. And I'd be you know, I'm a Minnesota Twins fan, of course. And I'd be calling the games.

Peter Vogt [00:03:07]:
I'd be broadcasting the games out loud, but there's nobody around. It's just me. And I always felt a little self conscious about it, but I couldn't help myself. And, you know, I was always safe at home, and I always hit the home run. It was great. But where I really noticed it, I guess, was more in high school because that's when, you know, like, people were into the parties and people were into the pep rallies, and I just I just couldn't get into them. I was more the type of person who wanted to quietly read a book or if it was a Friday night and it had been a long week at school, the last thing I wanted to do was go out and party with anybody. I just wanted to kind of pull up and be by myself.

Peter Vogt [00:03:50]:
And I didn't I didn't know what introversion and extrovert I never even heard of the words. I I didn't know what any of it was. But I sort of concluded I concluded, I guess, on my own by looking around me and seeing what I saw and hearing what I heard that, god, Pete, something must be around with you. I think about this a lot, David, because so many introverts out there kind of get it from other people in their life. You know, the I I was on I spoke with somebody just the other day, a person who might become a client, I guess, but she was talking about how her whole life, her mom's been trying to turn her into an extrovert. I feel really blessed that that particular thing did not happen to me. I didn't have to put up with it for my folks or my, you know, my dad was pretty introverted himself. My my mom talked a lot.

Peter Vogt [00:04:41]:
And, like, if she'd call me on the shopping trips to the store or whatever, you know, something that could have taken 10 minutes took a 110 minutes because she had talked to everybody, and she was that type of person. But I but they never pressured me, and I never really even got pressure from my friends like so many other introverts do. You know? You got you know, I didn't I didn't get all those questions like, how come you don't talk more? And why are you so quiet? Like, I do feel blessed in that way because so many introverts really do get that sort of sort of stuff. But I I did look around myself and sort of conclude that, like, on my own almost that there must be something not quite right with you because all through growing up, all through high school into college, just didn't feel like I would fit in like, I fit in the way that I ought to is, I guess, what it amounts to. That's where all of this, I guess, began. And then I I went to graduate school to study counseling, and it was in August of 1995. I had actually, David, one of those days one of those moments that happens in the movies where you have an uh-uh and the, you know, the light shines and the music. Not quite, but, you know, like, one of these sort of revelatory moments.

Peter Vogt [00:05:54]:
Because in grad school, I signed up to be something called a career planning group leader, and we were going through our training. And, of course, what we did as part of our training was the Myers Briggs type indicator, which many of your listeners have probably done. And, you know, Myers Briggs has its strengths and weaknesses, but it basically gives you some sense of who you are. And, David, I learned that there's this thing called introversion. Like, I I so vividly remembered and what went through my head because I came out pretty strongly introverted on that inventory. What went through my head was this exact thought. Oh my god. There's nothing wrong with you.

Peter Vogt [00:06:34]:
You're just an introvert. And that was, I guess, one of my inflection points in life that sort of I've been fascinated with it ever since. I I've been fascinated with the whole concept probably much like you, David. Like, just what is this all about? And I've been studying it ever since, and so I've taken on this what I call introvert advocate role because I just what I would like people to understand, bottom line, is that there's nothing wrong with you. You're just an introvert. You're you're simply introverted. It's the same as if you're an extrovert. There's nothing wrong with you if you're an extrovert.

Peter Vogt [00:07:09]:
You're just extroverted. We don't we don't tend to stick the something's wrong with you part on the extroverts in our lives. And so that's where the introvert advocacy comes in is instead of trying to fight yourself, you you just I help people be themselves. And the way that I look at it, I guess, bottom line is that instead of instead of running into the wind as an introvert, trying to become extroverted or fight your introversion, it's all this running into the wind. You know? And instead realize that there's a wind at your back. And then if you play to your strengths and you understand what they are as an introvert, run with the wind. You know? Sometimes we all have to run against it. I don't get me wrong.

Peter Vogt [00:07:56]:
But as as a general rule, find the way the wind is blowing and and run with it so that you have a really healthy, happy life. That's that's that's the long and the short of it.

David Hall [00:08:07]:
Yeah. Well said. And even if we're running against the win, if we can run with our strengths, it's gonna go much better. And you are not the first. I definitely felt like something was wrong with me, and our journey probably is similar in in college. Like, why can't I be more like that person, or why can't I, you know, do this so comfortably as that other person? And so many guests have come on like yourself and said the exact same thing. They thought something was wrong with them. Yep.

David Hall [00:08:36]:
I'm married to an introvert, and something that's amazing about that is she's, you know, she's a fellow introvert, but she's never felt that way. She's always been confident. And so that's been good for me to see that she does need her time and space and other things. She's definitely a creative deep thinker, but she hadn't ever felt like something was wrong with her. So there are introverts that don't go through that same struggle, but there are many of us that do. And, of course, that's why we're doing our work. Right, Peter?

Peter Vogt [00:09:07]:
Yeah. And I I'm glad you brought that up because that that was a discovery that I needed to make also. That when I when my book, the introvert manifesto, when I first wrote it, I sent it around to some people to try to get some feedback as many authors do. And one of the introverts that I gave it to really basically said, I don't really relate to much of this, Pete. And the reason he said that is because he had always felt pretty confident, and he had always felt he had he had not experienced the whole at least he was saying he had not experienced that whole something's wrong with me. And so I have come to realize over the years that if roughly half of us, let's say, are introverts some to some degree, I think it's a subset of that half that are gonna be more likely to relate to the things you and I are talking about at the like, when when it comes to the whole something's wrong with me, shame sort of thing. And then there there will be a fair number of introverts who just probably won't relate to that aspect of it. They'll relate more to the things like your wife relates to.

Peter Vogt [00:10:15]:
Like, I really do need my alone time. I really do need my time to think, but I don't I don't feel the need to apologize for any of that sort of thing.

David Hall [00:10:23]:
Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad you brought up the half number because a lot of times, you know, when I say that, that, you know, it's about half the population, people are like, oh, no, but they're not thinking of what introversion really is. Because some introverts have always been confident, know who they are. I know some very outspoken and confident introverts. Some of us, like you and I, we had to learn to gain that confidence and, you know, embrace who we are. And then a lot of people that we're trying to reach are those that aren't confident, but absolutely could be. And a lot of it is from just understanding your introversion.

David Hall [00:11:01]:
A lot of that confidence can come for the person that is feeling shy and not confident. Understanding introversion can really, really make a change.

Peter Vogt [00:11:11]:
Yeah. I I totally agree with that. I mean, that has been my experience in a nutshell. I all all I had all I needed to some degree was that sort of revelation that this is something that is a the the the beautiful thing about the Myers Briggs approach is that whatever if you wanna say type, whatever you wanna call it, it's shown that it's a positive thing. Like, there are no negatives. It just shows that there are differences. That's the key thing to understand even between extroverts and introverts. It's not that extroverts are better than introverts, and it's certainly not that introverts are better than extroverts.

Peter Vogt [00:11:48]:
It's not the sneetches like doctor Seuss.

David Hall [00:11:51]:
Right. I love that book. Yeah.

Peter Vogt [00:11:53]:
So do I. But it's just that we're just different. We just approach things differently. We need different things. There's no value judgment in that. And that that's the part of the things that I think that I push on the most in my work, and probably you do too just to a large degree is just sort of balancing the scales. It's like I always think of it as a teeter totter. Like, the teeter totter of life right now in our culture, in western culture, let's say, the teeter totter is sort of skewed extrovert.

Peter Vogt [00:12:26]:
It's not balanced. And I'm not arguing that we should just flip it around. I'm just arguing that let's just make it a little more balanced. Let's make it a little more even, Steven, and then everybody can get what they need. And then everybody has to stretch some too. Right? Because we don't get to go through life never being extroverted. We definitely don't want to. Right? It's just for the most part, we want to be our introverted selves, but there are times like this, for example.

Peter Vogt [00:12:53]:
Like, we're you and I are both being pretty extroverted right now.

David Hall [00:12:57]:
Yeah. I don't call it that myself. It's I, It's a

Peter Vogt [00:13:00]:
it's a it's for a good cause to put this in again. Right? And that may that means it's totally worth it.

David Hall [00:13:07]:
Yeah. And, I definitely benefited from the Myers Briggs too. And it's a tool. You know? So I hear different criticism like you were mentioning. But whatever those are, there is introversion and extroversion. And definitely the other personality preferences that talks about. Those things are real. You know? Just from living life as long as I have I see those things in people.

David Hall [00:13:30]:
And that's the whole thing. I I love that you said it's not good or bad because none none of it is good or bad. For some reason, we are created differently, and we need each other. You know? As people, there should be teams of introverts and extroverts. But what needs to happen is there needs to be an understanding about how we work a little differently. Yep. So, you mentioned that you wrote a book. Tell us a little bit about that.

David Hall [00:13:55]:
How'd you decide to write that?

Peter Vogt [00:13:56]:
I wrote the it's called the introvert manifesto, and I wrote it because I just I couldn't not there's a little bit of background here because my first wife I I lost my first wife to cancer back in 2012. Sorry. And no. Thank you. And one of the things I learned from that experience is that life is short. Like, life really is short. I saw it right before my eyes. Right? There's sort of the there's the old saying, life is short, and then there's the actual, oh my gosh.

Peter Vogt [00:14:31]:
It happened right in front of me sort of thing. And so I felt sort of compelled by the this whole issue by that time. And what I just what all all I really wanted to do was I sort of pretended to myself that it was I almost pretended like I was in a TED talk. I said to myself, if if the world gave me whatever it is, 19 minutes or whatever it's TED talk, 20 minutes. Like, if they would just sit still and they would all listen to what I would have to say about introversion, what would I want to say? Like, what would I wanna say about introverts and introversion? It's almost like mythbusters. It's mythbusters for introverts and introversion. And then I just went ahead and said it, and I just wrote these little vignettes about if I could say to the world this, one of the things I'd say, you know what? There is nothing wrong with me. I'm just an introvert, so stop saying that.

Peter Vogt [00:15:22]:
Or it's not that I don't like people as an introvert. It's that the way that I interact with people is different from the way that extroverts do it. It's stuff like that. So that that all just came pouring out of me. I sat by this little lake with a notebook, and day by day, I wrote one of these little things and just let them come out. And I tried to just sort of pretend that I was you know, nobody can speak for all introverts because we're all different. Right? I mean, it's sort of ridiculous to think that. But I just sort of tried to pretend that if I if I had this chance to sort of dispel some myths with people, these are the primary ones that I would dispel.

Peter Vogt [00:16:02]:
And so it's written for introverts and extroverts both, honestly. I mean, I want introverts who read it to understand that they're not the only ones who've had these thoughts and that they're very sensible things to think given the world we live in. And then, you know, if the extroverts would read it, they would learn something too that it's not so much about quit trying to change us and quit asking It's you know how it goes. So in a nutshell, the that is the book. It's just sort of busting some myths about introverts and introversion, and I try to do it for both introverts and extroverts.

David Hall [00:16:41]:
Yeah. Absolutely. And that's a big part of this show. We talk about the strengths and needs of introverts. We bust some myths. Do you wanna bust anymore? Oh my.

Peter Vogt [00:16:50]:
The you know the one since you've teed it up for me, David Yeah. There's a 100 there's 500. Probably, you could do 500 too. I would say the myth that I want to bust the most that drives me the most crazy that needs to be it's the it's the myth that drives all other myths. It's this whole idea that if you're an introvert and you think something's wrong with you, that has got to go because it's fundamentally false. It's not true. There is nothing wrong with you. You're simply introverted.

Peter Vogt [00:17:25]:
Now do we have our things to work on? Like, does everybody? Of course. Right? We all have our things to work on. There's things we should work on. Our spouses, let's say, will tell us to. There are things we want to work on. No problem. Nobody's arguing that. But, fundamentally, where your introversion is concerned, there's nothing wrong with you.

Peter Vogt [00:17:48]:
That has to stop. The flip side has to become true. And the idea, the real truth is that you're simply an introvert and you're simply somebody who has a different set of needs, a different set of strengths compared to the typical extra, period. That's it.

David Hall [00:18:05]:
Yeah. I love that.

Peter Vogt [00:18:07]:
That's so if there was a myth that I wanted to bust in a nutshell, that's it. It's that's the one. I mean, you said in your book, David, it's your book is called Minding Your Time. I wrote this down. It's on page 5, everybody, if you're reading David's book. This is what he says. He says, as an introvert, understanding your own strengths and needs and how to make the most of them will be the secret to your success. And I I underline the word understanding there be for two reasons.

Peter Vogt [00:18:36]:
One is because well, we can look at that word in 2 ways, understanding. Sometimes understanding is sort of in the algebra context. Right? Like, I can finally, at long last, understand this equation after years of pounding my head. Like, intellectually, logically, I get it now. So we want to understand our introversion. We want to we want to understand that it's a thing. We want to understand that there's, you know, nothing wrong with it, etcetera. So there's that form of understanding.

Peter Vogt [00:19:06]:
Just sort of having an intellectual understanding that you're an introvert is important. But the bigger thing, what I read into your words, David, is understanding in terms also of accepting, embracing, welcoming, knowing, sort of wrapping yourself in the hug of it all is a form of understanding also. And both of those need to be true if you're an introvert. And that, in a nutshell, is what I'm arguing. That's my whole argument. Bottom line is that instead of trying to be someone you're not, which will never work, by the way, it it can't. It doesn't work, nor should it. You simply you'd be the introvert you are and you live your own way.

David Hall [00:19:55]:
Yeah. You know? And,

Peter Vogt [00:19:56]:
to to the degree possible. Sometimes nobody's perfect. Sometimes it doesn't work out. Sometimes you go against your own grains either by choice or by necessity, but primarily, you get permission. You don't even need permission, but you deserve to just go ahead and be that person that you already are.

David Hall [00:20:16]:
Period. And that is the secret. Thanks for mentioning it, the book. And along those lines, and I definitely have had people that have tried to fix me during my life. And what I learned is I don't need fixing, but I need to embrace who I am like you beautiful and said. And so with time management, why I wrote that book is because often, you know, the things that we need to work on, we need to work on with our introverted strengths and needs. You know? So, like, when I was in college and I was trying to work on this, and it was long past college that I finally embraced fully who I am. I read a book on how to not be shy.

David Hall [00:20:57]:
If I was to go back and find that book, I bet you it was written by an extrovert because the advice did not work for me. Sure. And so, anyway, fast forward, I've embraced my introversion. I'm in a place where I I started to blog, you know, about introversion. I still have a full time job. I run a business with my wife on the side of my full time job. We have 3 kids. I'm reading time management books and resources, and I'm like, there's things that I need as an introvert that aren't called out in these books.

David Hall [00:21:28]:
You know? I need some space. You know? I need some time. You know? There's a lot of talk about how we need to recharge. Yes. Absolutely. But we need time for so many other things. You know, we need time to think. We need time to make some great plans.

David Hall [00:21:43]:
We need time to dream to, you know, be creative. And those things weren't being called out. Definitely not as this is an introvert need. So that is why I wrote, you know, minding your time because our strategies to success are gonna look different, whether that's time management or public speaking or leadership. We can be amazing at all those things. It's just our approach is gonna look different, and that's that's something that we need to embrace. It's like, okay. If I'm gonna give a speech, which I love, I'm probably gonna prepare differently than my extroverted friend might, you know, and that's fine.

David Hall [00:22:18]:
And I also might need a break afterwards. So Yeah. And, I mean, that

Peter Vogt [00:22:22]:
to me is the gist of your whole book when I read it is that it sort of felt like a kindred spirit speaking to me because it's the way like, when I do my talks, I have a certain David, when I do my talks, I do them the day before, and I sit I stand in my living room, and I put chairs around, and I find my kids stuffed animals, and I put them around, and they are my audience. So what I'm saying is that I that you're unlikely to find that in another in another public speaking sort of book, but that is an introverted strategy that, like, that's the kind of thing that you're talking about in your book is you have a way of doing it as an introvert that is going to work best for you. Here it is, which nobody's written about before. Right? Like, here are some of the the things. And not just beforehand, but afterwards as you point out. Right? Because even if you have a great time, and you probably do in your presentations, you're likely it may not be the greatest idea to sign up for a networking invite instantly after you can. Right? Yeah. And and you pointed that sort of thing out in your book too.

Peter Vogt [00:23:39]:
So I just appreciate that sort of approach. It's the same idea. We're talking about the same sort of idea broadly speaking, which is really just know what your strengths are, know what your needs are, and play to those to the to the maximum degree that you can.

David Hall [00:23:55]:
Yeah. So let's talk about strengths. What's the strength or 2 that you have because you're an introvert?

Peter Vogt [00:24:02]:
I think the two primary strengths I have because of my introversion, one is researching and synthesizing, I guess I would call it. I'm a junkie about reading and reading about this topic, and I guess maybe maybe one way to say it would be pattern recognition. Seeing patterns in different things. Like, for example, lately, I've been reading a lot of Brene Brown stuff on shame, which, in a nutshell, shame is I think something's wrong with me. And she doesn't specific she is an introvert. I am I have figured that out.

David Hall [00:24:36]:
She has talked Oh, she says it. Yeah. She says I am an introvert. Yeah.

Peter Vogt [00:24:39]:
Has talked about that in her, one of her videos. Jen write about it specifically in her work, but as I read that work, I see the introvert stuff laced all through it. And I think that's because of this pattern recognition or seeing different things in different places that appear to be different names for similar things in my mind. So I guess that's one strength is researching and synthesizing in a nutshell. The other one that I attribute to my introversion is just writing. I mean, if if I can pick a way to communicate, what we're doing right now would not be my first pick. It's gotten better over the years. It's much more fun when it's, you know, on a topic of interest in a person that I can connect with like you.

Peter Vogt [00:25:28]:
But if I like, truly, if I could pick, if I really play to my strengths, if if something really matters, I'm gonna write it. I I need to write it because it's just that just plays to my plays to my need, I guess, to think about it, think it through carefully, organize my thoughts. It it helps me to not be under the pressure of the moment and get the words just right. And so I would say when it comes to introversion, those are my 2 go to strengths. Or they they work hand in hand, researching and writing in a nutshell.

David Hall [00:26:07]:
Yeah. And they go together, and you do some great work because of it.

Peter Vogt [00:26:11]:
Well, thank you. I appreciate that. I I enjoy it. That's the thing. It's because the phrase now for it is geek out. Right? I geek out on the introvert stuff. I'm sitting around my house all the time reading journal articles about introversion. Like, that's how it is for me.

Peter Vogt [00:26:28]:
You know? Other people geek out on other things. My dad geeked out on cars and other whatever it might be. This is just something that has come to fascinate me, and I just I just keep learning. You know how the the old saying, David, of the more you the more you know, the more you don't the more you realize you don't know.

David Hall [00:26:50]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Peter Vogt [00:26:51]:
That that plays true for me on this one. That's what keeps me sort of fueled to just continue researching and looking for puzzle pieces that fit together and etcetera.

David Hall [00:27:02]:
But Yeah. And as a deep thinker, we do often like to write because we are able to gather our thoughts and let our minds process things. And often, it's a slower processing time, but great results come from it. But Yep. If we don't realize that, that can, you know, chip away at our confidence. If you're even in conversation, if you're thinking, which is so natural for us, you're thinking before you speak, and then the extrovert is speaking in order to think. If you don't get that dynamic, you can definitely feel shy or you could lack confidence. But understanding that makes all the difference.

David Hall [00:27:44]:
It's like, yeah, I think I need to think, but it's a great gift. Like, it's a great gift for writing and researching and, you know, just you brought up Brene Brown. She's she's as I've heard her say, you know, I am an introvert. But think of the great work that she's done and the great benefit because she's thinking and researching and writing it. You know? It's it's amazing.

Peter Vogt [00:28:07]:
And that's the beauty of it. I mean, that's if there's something for your listeners to sort of always keep in mind or always remember, it's what you just said is think of the great work that has come from that approach that she takes or that we all take. Right? Think of all the depth. Think of all the knowledge. And then think of when it's captured in this case in in written form, how you are able you as a consumer of it are then able to digest it at your own pace and look at it over and over again. It's just once again, it's a different way of communicating from speaking in the moment because speaking in the moment can be very that's probably the most powerful TED talk I've ever seen. I mean, it was just it's it was fundamentally just dazzling beautifully well done. And so it just that's a one way of capturing somebody's attention in a memorable way, but this other way of doing it through writing is, you know, very, very can be very memorable too.

Peter Vogt [00:29:15]:
That's what's that's what's important for people listening to remember is that if you especially if I I have found with writing in particular that people who are who are good writers and who enjoy writing vastly vastly underestimate its power. Like, incredibly so. 1 of our kids is a really good writer. He has no idea how good of a writer he is. He just doesn't conceptualize how powerful you know, I'm reading his essays when he's applying to college or whatever. Right? And just looking at them. I'm like, oh, man. I didn't know what this kid is.

Peter Vogt [00:29:56]:
You're like, wow. I I didn't know this kid was thinking these kinds of deep thoughts. I mean, I sorta did, but yes and no. Right? You see the words right in front of you, and he's the one who wrote them. And I just had to point out to my and to just say, you know, you realize you're a really good writer. Right? You do realize that. I think a lot of people just don't know a lot of introverts, especially if you happen to be if you're an introvert listening to this and you're a good writer and you're a strong writer and you love writing, wow. You you have something that is extremely powerful and extremely beneficial and extremely, extremely potentially helpful to the world.

Peter Vogt [00:30:42]:
Like, don't underestimate it. I've seen it too many times.

David Hall [00:30:46]:
Yeah. So the writing is powerful in of itself, but, also, it can lead to being able to articulate our thoughts. You know, like you mentioned, Susan Cain. You know, those thoughts that she shared in a very famous Ted Talk, which I definitely benefit from, was because she wrote about

Peter Vogt [00:31:05]:
it first. You betcha. Yeah. I mean, her her book is just as well done. I mean, You cannot say it. You cannot like, you can you everyone will have their own opinion, but there's not a chance that you can say that her book was poorly researched and poorly written. I that's fundamentally wrong. It it is so well done, that book, so well researched.

Peter Vogt [00:31:32]:
She, you know, she she wrote parts of it like, you know, like little chapters of out in the field when she's at the Tony Robbins thing, and and, you know, she she just killed it. Right? She killed it. She killed it like an introvert. You would think a strong introvert would write a strong introvert book, and she crushed it. There's she fundamentally crushed that book, and there's no it's no wonder people have latched on to it, me included, because it's just really, really well done. And it's really, really it's really, really honest and authentic. And that just that just captures you. It just captures you.

David Hall [00:32:09]:
Yeah. And, you know, I I've actually been surprised because just like I asked you, how'd you embrace your a lot of A lot of people so many people say Susan Cain. And, you know, it's only 10 years ago that she wrote that book, so it was a little after you already embraced your intuition. But so many people benefited from that book and that TED talk where they learned, hey. Just like you're saying, I'm okay. And in fact, not only am I okay, this is great. Yeah.

Peter Vogt [00:32:43]:
But that was not on anybody's bingo card until it was. Yeah. And that that is and you're saying you're saying you're actually saying the same message and so am I, David, in just a different words. Like, we're we're all we're all coming basically across to that same message of not only is there nothing wrong with you, there's a lot right with you.

David Hall [00:33:04]:
Yeah. Yeah. For sure.

Peter Vogt [00:33:06]:
It's some fundamentally, it's some version of that.

David Hall [00:33:09]:
Yeah. So let's get back to you know, you were talking about Brene Brown and, right, I know that an important topic for you is around Shane. So tell us about that and how that relates to introversion.

Peter Vogt [00:33:21]:
Well, when as I've been reading more of her stuff and studying more about the issue of shame in particular, I've I've come to call something so many of us introverts as we were talking about earlier, not all, but a decent percentage, have have somehow, somewhere along the line in their lives, they have thought the thought or maybe they still are. They're thinking something must be wrong with me or is something wrong with me? Sometimes it comes in question form. Is something wrong with me? And sometimes it comes in statement form. Something is definitely wrong with me. And and I'm talking about in because they're introverted, they're they're they're connecting the dots that being introverted means something is wrong with you. And that, fundamentally, that is shame. That, in a nutshell, is shame. I have come to call it the introvert shame phenomenon.

Peter Vogt [00:34:16]:
I'm borrowing that term that many of your listeners I'm sure you have heard of imposter, the imposter phenomenon. And I'm using the word phenomenon intentionally, and I'll tell you why. Because the 2 women who came up with it, the imposter idea the idea of being an imposter, to this day, they're still upset that it somehow morphed into imposter syndrome because syndrome makes it a pathology like you've caught something, and they don't want that and rightfully so. It's not they were simply pointing out that if you feel this way, you're, like, if you feel sometimes like you're an imposter, you're not the only one. You're not even close. It is a thing. Right? It it makes sense that you that's all they were trying to say. I've read up on I've read up on what they're trying and not trying to do.

Peter Vogt [00:35:05]:
So I'm using the word phenomenon in the same way. It's just what I'd like introverts out there to understand is that if you've ever thought because of your introversion, you know, something must be wrong with me. You've experienced the introvert shame phenomenon.

David Hall [00:35:20]:
It's a thing.

Peter Vogt [00:35:21]:
It's real. It's sort of sensible that you would experience it because we live in a pretty extroverted culture with extroverted expectations. The extroverts in your life are sometimes asking you, how come you don't talk more? Why don't you do why don't you come out with us more? Blah blah. All of those. Right? There's a 100 of those. There doesn't seem to be the the equivalence in reverse that I've noticed. We don't see the introvert say saying to the extroverts, how come you don't do solitude more? Why are you such a team player? Like, it's just ridiculous. We don't hear those things.

Peter Vogt [00:35:58]:
And so the reason I'm even bringing it up, David, is because if you're feeling this something's wrong with me thought where your introversion is concerned, and you you can think about shame on on a lot of different things. Many women have shame about body image. Brene Brown talks a lot about that. And let's just define our terms to be clear. Brene Brown, if you want to learn more about this, read Brene Brown's book called I thought it was just me, but it isn't. It's a really helpful book for this. She distinguishes between guilt and shame. And guilt fundamentally is I did something bad.

Peter Vogt [00:36:35]:
I did something wrong. I acted in a bad way. Shame is fundamentally, I am bad. I am wrong. There's something fundamentally wrong with me personally, and it's shame that we're talking about in this case because guilt guilt can be sort of helpful if you've done something wrong. But the moment you start equating your introversion with something is wrong with me, then you've made it personal. People will typically express it in the the some form of the phrase, I thought something was wrong with me. I have hundreds of articles in this file drawer right next to me that I've kept.

Peter Vogt [00:37:09]:
And some version of I always thought something was wrong with me written by is is in those articles. And you'll see other words too, like I thought I was flawed, I thought I was broken, I thought I was weird, I thought I was odd. But it was it's always phrased as I thought I was something, not I did something. And so why does it even matter? Like, why who cares? Right? The reason it matters is that if you go around if if you fundamentally even subconsciously think something's wrong with you as an introvert, then, a, you're gonna fight yourself all the time. You're gonna try somehow to be that person that you're not, and you can't do it. It can't be done, nor should you have to. And far worse, b, you you don't get what you do need as an introvert. You don't you end up it's like the opportunity cost of trying to be the extrovert you're not is is losing out on being the introvert you are.

Peter Vogt [00:38:09]:
You don't get to play to your strengths. You don't get the solitude you need or the thinking time. You you fight against all of it, and so you just it it becomes very, very difficult, if not impossible, to be consistently healthy and happy and feel like you're yourself.

David Hall [00:38:25]:
Yeah.

Peter Vogt [00:38:26]:
So that that's why I'm getting all worked up about it. It's because it's so important for people to be able to just be themselves and live their own way fundamentally. And if you have if you're battling shame, you won't be able to do that. You can't.

David Hall [00:38:43]:
Yeah. So I also love that she talks a lot about being authentic, living authentically. So how would you say the introverts can live their best life and live authentically?

Peter Vogt [00:38:55]:
I think you have to first work hard to be aware in your own life if shame about introversion is an issue for you. Like, that's where you begin. Some like, you talked about your wife, for example, David. It sounds like maybe for her, that's not the case. Great. No problem. Because then then she can move on to or other people like that can move on to what are the fundamental things I need as an introvert to be my best and play to my strengths. And we don't have to worry about this whole self-concept issue of it.

Peter Vogt [00:39:27]:
The to me, the fundamental foundation of all of it is that you have to have a positive view of yourself as an introvert. And if if you don't, then you're not going to take care of yourself the way that you want and need to as an introvert because you're thinking to yourself, I'm not even supposed to be this way in the first place. Like, I'm supposed to be something else. And so how do you be your authentic self as an introvert? Part 1, if you will, is get to the point, and this is hard work. This is not easy. Right? If you're one of the introverts out there listening to this and you have ever thought to yourself, and if you still do, something's wrong with me because of my introversion, Listening to Peter Vogt and David Hall on a 47 minute podcast is not going to turn it around instantaneously. Let's just face it. Right? Like, that's ridiculous.

Peter Vogt [00:40:19]:
But your awareness of the fact that something is amiss about that and that you don't deserve to feel that way and that there's a different way of looking at it, you can start chipping away and working in the other direction. When in grad school, we learned about cognitive behavioral therapy. I'm sure you did too, David. Right? Yep. Which in a nutshell is you change the way you think, and then that helps you change the way you feel. In a huge nutshell, I guess that's what it would be. And I always resisted it a bit as somebody who was learning how to do that sort of thing because it seemed like magical, almost magical thinking. Like, all you gotta do is change your thinking and everything will be all better.

Peter Vogt [00:41:00]:
And what I what I fundamentally misunderstood have a more balanced view of it. You can you're still gonna have your struggles. It's it's not like everything goes away completely, but you have a fundamentally more fair look at this at at whatever issue it is. And and that's what I'm saying with this is if you can get to the point where you're saying, you know, I have some stuff on because I'm an introvert, call them weaknesses, call it whatever you want to. Things to work on? Fine. But I also what gets lost is all these strengths, all of these things you are good at doing, all of these things you do need. And if you can just work realistically to a balanced view of it instead of something's wrong with me, It doesn't become everything's perfect about me. That's ridiculous.

Peter Vogt [00:41:57]:
It becomes something more like I have my strengths. I have my weaknesses. I'm gonna run with my strengths. That fundamentally to me is doable and reasonable in people's minds as a thing that actually a typical person could actually pull off in the real world. And so step 1 for me is get to that point. Get to the point of at least I have a more balanced view and work towards the positive view of myself as an introvert. Because then number 2, the other step of it is once you have that, once you've come to that point, then you really do know then it really does become more nuts and boltsy. I call them 4 pillars of introvert well-being, David.

Peter Vogt [00:42:38]:
Like, to me, the 4 things introverts need most in life, generally speaking, Solitude, you know, alone time, reflection, time to think, those two things. The ability to focus and not get pulled in too many directions at one time and to dig deeply into things like we are right now. Like, fundamentally, if you can just manage your life to get those 4 things then, then you're more likely to be willing and able to do that when you feel good about yourself as an introvert. Then you can have an authentic and healthy and happy life as an introvert. Not a perfect life. Nobody gets that. No. But you fundamentally can turn it around from like I said earlier, I really do think a lot about how it it's changing your life from going into the wind constantly, which is exhausting, to flipping it around and going with the wind, which is less it still work.

Peter Vogt [00:43:36]:
That's the thing. If if you're a runner, for example I run sometimes. Running is tough. Running sucks like some people. I I don't love running, but I do it. And running into the wind is the worst because it's even more work and even more slower than I already am. If I run with the wind, it still work, but it's easier, and it goes better, and I'm a little bit faster, and I'm a little bit stronger, and I can go a little bit farther. And that's all I'm saying.

Peter Vogt [00:44:07]:
It's like you're working either way. In life, you're going to work either way. But why not if you can with your awareness? When you've got some awareness and you've got some planning ability, why not run with it? That's fundamentally all I'm arguing. But if you're battling that shame thing, you don't even get that far. That's what I finally came to figure out is that it's really nice to have 4 pillars of introvert well-being as a concept. Whatever you call them, people call them different things. But if you've forgotten the part about feeling good about yourself that you would bother to pursue those pillars in the first place, then you've got nothing. Yeah.

David Hall [00:44:47]:
I love that. Run with your strengths. You have to address the shame part first if

Peter Vogt [00:44:52]:
it's an issue for you is what the bottom line is.

David Hall [00:44:55]:
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So run with your strengths. Peter, this has been such a great conversation. Tell us about just the work you do, your course, and how people could get a hold of you if they want more information.

Peter Vogt [00:45:07]:
Sure. I'm always available. If you would like to learn more, the best place to go is my website introvertinsights.com. And there's lots of free things there. One of the things that's important to me with people is is making sure we gauge the fit or lack of fit with each other if we were to ever work together because there are some people that the fit would be just right, and there are a lot of people where it's just not a fit for whatever reason. And so the reason I bring that up is because at the website, if you wanna kinda get to know me a little bit, there's a lot of free things that you can do there. For example, there's a ebook version of my book that's free there. I make videos, you know, little short videos about introvert related topics.

Peter Vogt [00:45:52]:
There's lots of things that we can sort of get to know each other. And then there's other things there. What my book is there, etcetera. What my primary thing that I focus on now is my online course and coaching program, which is called be the introvert you are. I'll leave it to people. If you would like to check it out, you'll see it on my website. The just look for that that course name. The thing, I guess, I'm most proud of and most most want people to understand about the course, if you are interested, is that one of the things that you can do if you are battling this shame element in your life in particular, one of the best things you can do is talk about it, which, you know, for introverts, guys, especially sometimes, it's not easy.

Peter Vogt [00:46:36]:
Right? But one of the best things you can do to help yourself is to be with other people who have experienced it, who see the same things that so that you realize it's not just you. So a big part of that course is not just the material of the course, but it's a private online coaching group that we that I'm involved in and the students in the course are in on it too so that you could just bring your questions there, bring concerns there. That's an important part of it for the reasons that I've talked about with this whole shame idea because if that's something that you need or want to address, it's important to do that because the rest of it really becomes irrelevant if you don't. If you're in that shame spot is what I'm saying. If you're in that what's something must be wrong with me sort of spot and you do decide to take the course at some point, I think what will be at least as helpful to you, if not more so than the course material itself is this group of people who are not you know, you can find groups online. Right? You can find you can go on Facebook and find introvert groups, but they tend to be filled with memes and complaining, and there's a place for that. That's fine. But if you would like to have a serious discussion about you and your introversion, that this is a place where you can do that with people who actually care and understand where you're coming from.

Peter Vogt [00:47:56]:
And so I just invite people to check that out if they would like to. That's that's primarily I put out a blog post every week. I put out several videos every week. And like I said, if there's sometimes it helps to just, you know, test people out for free for a while first and then see how it goes, see if the fit see if the fit seems right, and that's that's a way for people that are listening to your show to do that very easily.

David Hall [00:48:23]:
Thank you. And I will put your information in the show notes. And, again, there's nothing wrong with you. I I love that message, Peter. Be the introvert that you are. So thanks again, Peter, for this great conversation. Thank you, David. I really appreciate it.

David Hall [00:48:37]:
Thank you so much for joining me today. I look forward to further connecting with you.

David Hall [00:48:42]:
Reach out at david at QuietandStrong.com or check out the quietandstrong.com website, which includes blog posts and links to social media channels. Send me topics or guests you would like to see on the show. If you're interested in getting to know yourself better, there's now a free type finder personality assessment on the Quiet and Strong website. This free assessment will give you a brief report, including the four letter Myers Briggs code, and you can also have the option of purchasing the full report if you'd like

David Hall [00:49:10]:
to learn more. I'll add a

David Hall [00:49:11]:
link to the show notes. So many great things about being an introvert, and we need those to be understood. Get to know your introverted strengths and needs and be strong.