Ep 189 - Liminal Leadership with Chris Fuzie

Have you ever wondered how effective leaders seamlessly transition between leading and following? In this episode of The Quiet And Strong Podcast, host David Hall sits down with leadership consultant and author Dr. Chris Fuzie to explore the intriguing concept of "liminal leadership."

Listeners will uncover the secrets behind navigating the spaces between leadership and followership, and learn about the importance of behavior-focused leadership over positional power. Chris shares eye-opening insights into the evolution of leadership and followership behaviors, touching on attributes like emotional intelligence, accountability, and commitment.

Tune in to hear Chris Fuzie's real-life experiences and groundbreaking theories that challenge traditional views of leadership. If you aspire to be a great leader or understand the dynamics of followership better, this episode is a must-listen.

Embrace these insights on your journey to stronger, more effective leadership—and be strong.

Episode Link: QuietandStrong.com/189

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Dr. Chris Fuzie is the owner of CMF Leadership Consulting and is currently the Business/HR Manager for a District Attorney’s office in California. Chris is a Leaderologist II and Vice President of the National Leaderology Association who holds a Doctor of Education (Ed. D) and has graduate certificates in Human Resources and Criminal Justice Education. Chris is a developer, trainer, consultant for leadership of public, private, profit, and non-profit organizations since 2010. Chris is the author of "Because Why... Understanding Behavior in Exigencies." and of "S.C.O.R.E. Performance Counseling: Save the Relationship, Change the Behavior," and his latest book, “Liminal Space: Reshaping Leadership and Followership.” Chris is honorably retired from the Modesto Police Department after 28 years of public service leading a variety teams.

Connect with Chris:

Websites: CMFLeadership.com | ScorePerformanceCounseling.com

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Transcript

Chris Fuzie [00:00:00]:
Liminal space is about creating behavior. So it's about leadership and followership, but it's too hard to say leadership or followership every single time. And then people still have this mental schema that followership is less than leadership. So if I just say liminal leaders, then people kinda get it. But when we talk about liminal leaders, we're talking about somebody who's stuck in between leading and following. They have to do both simultaneously. So a liminal leader is somebody who is, like almost every middle manager, every school principal, name it. Even presidents, vice presidents, you know, they they have to lead and follow at the same time.

David Hall [00:00:54]:
Hello, and welcome to episode 189 of the Quiet and Strong podcast, especially for introverts. I'm your host, David Hall, the creator of quietandstrong.com. This is a weekly podcast dedicated to understanding the strengths and needs of introverts. Introversion is not something to fix, but to be embraced. Normally, we'll air each episode on a Monday. Be sure to subscribe on your favorite platform. Leave a review or a rating. That would mean a lot to me and also help others find the show.

David Hall [00:01:22]:
Tell a friend about the podcast and help get the word out there that introversion is a beautiful thing. Doctor Chris Fuzie is the owner of CMF Leadership Consulting and is currently the business HR manager for a district attorney's office in California. Chris is a leaderologist 2 and vice president of the National Leaderology Association who holds a doctor of education, a master's of arts, and a bachelor's of arts in organizational leadership, and has a graduate certificate in human resources and criminal justice education. Chris is a developer, trainer, and consultant for leadership of public, private, profit, and nonprofit organizations since 2010. Chris is the author of 3 books, Because Why? Understanding Behavior and Extensions, SCORE, Performance Counseling, Save the Relationship, Change the Behavior, and his latest book, Liminal Space, Reshaping Leadership and Followership. Chris has honorably retired from the Modesto Police Department after 28 years of public service, including leading a variety of teams. Alright. Doctor Chris Fousey, welcome to the show today.

David Hall [00:02:40]:
We're so glad to have you on.

Chris Fuzie [00:02:42]:
Well, thank you. I'm very excited to be here. I'm I'm looking forward to this. I've been looking forward to this. It strikes close to home.

David Hall [00:02:50]:
Alright. Well, we're gonna talk all about the work you do with leadership.

Chris Fuzie [00:02:55]:
Okay.

David Hall [00:02:55]:
So let's start with your start. Like, tell us a little bit about your journey to now being a author and leadership consultant.

Chris Fuzie [00:03:03]:
So, a, I never thought I would be here. Yeah. So, yeah, I started out in life just my goal was to get in the Navy and just be gone. Right? That was my my first goal. And then that didn't work out. So I I joined the police department here in Modesto and ended up 3rd or 28 years here at in Modesto at the police department. But that's where this this leadership stuff started. About halfway through, I as I've been working about 18 years.

Chris Fuzie [00:03:35]:
And about halfway through, that's about, you know, that point, one of my lieutenants, we're doing a briefing, and I'm sitting in the back because I'm one of the old guys, you know, and they're sitting in the back. And and I like to say at that time, I only had a PhD, public high school diploma.

David Hall [00:03:54]:
Okay.

Chris Fuzie [00:03:54]:
And, you know, so he kinda he's talking about he says, hey, any of you who want to promote, and he knew that I wanted to promote, and he kinda turns to the side and and looks around somebody else so he can see me. And he says, you need to start thinking about your education. And it was like like he shot a bullet and hit me right in the back of the head, and it just kept going around around around around. And I I said, okay. I need to think about my education. So I went back to school. Like I said, I only had the public high school diploma and Right. With that, season f's were great grades because they were my initials.

Chris Fuzie [00:04:29]:
So they weren't that great. So I went back to school and I said I need something in case some of my, you know, a lot of my friends have been getting hurt around that time and, you know, we're a pretty go getter kind of group. And so I said if I get hurt, if I can't work anymore as a cop, then what do I gotta do? So I I went back to school for org leadership, and I said, well, I'll be able to use that anywhere. So I started seeing all of the things that happened in the leadership studies and all the different theories and stuff. I went back to school, finished that, got the BA, went right into the master's program. And in the master's program, started seeing even more of it. And so in that time, I also promoted to a sergeant. So I started using all this stuff.

Chris Fuzie [00:05:18]:
Very you know, we talk about something in the night class. And I go to work the next day and immediately implement it and see what it did. I remember one night having a we had this big old pursuit after a gang fight or because of a gang fight, and people were gonna meet at a certain place and then go into this fight together. Right? So, you know, round up the troops and then let's posse you up and go in. And and so they were all rolling code 3 to this one location. I I that's not we're not that's against policy. We're not doing it. So the next day, I started talking

David Hall [00:05:55]:
about code what is a code 3 for everyone?

Chris Fuzie [00:05:57]:
Code 3 is lights and siren, you know, rolling code as fast as you can get there and which is against policy unless you're going to the emergency. Well, they're not going to the emergency. They're going to a staging point. And so so I canceled the code 3 and everybody was pissed. So, you know, I mean, that's what a cop's like there? He rolled code 3. That's anyway, so they were they were upset about that. So the next day, I said, well, that was a bunch of group think. We're all, you know and I started talking about group think.

Chris Fuzie [00:06:25]:
And they go, oh, gosh, Sarge. You know, more of this educated stuff. Why do you why do you keep bringing well, it's absolutely applicable, you know. So I I started doing that. And then we started growing, we started teaching a leadership program for the International Association of Chiefs of Police. And the guy that we had teaching it hadn't even been trained. He didn't know what he was doing. And and so I ended up taking over that program with a master's degree, taking over the program as the instructor and started and then we started training people throughout the state in leadership and followership.

Chris Fuzie [00:07:03]:
And that's that's how that started. I promoted to lieutenant, kept working with the leadership program, kept practicing all this stuff in the in the police department. And then in 2010, the city, you know, after the financial crisis, the city said, hey, you people that get paid a lot of money, we'll give you even a little bit of more money if you just go away for a while.

David Hall [00:07:26]:
Okay. So so

Chris Fuzie [00:07:27]:
I said, that's it for me. The stars aligned and and I said, okay. I will. But I kept teaching for IACP. And then IACP changed their business model, and I said, no. I'm done. I'm not gonna I'm not I didn't agree with their business model. They wanted to charge too much for it.

Chris Fuzie [00:07:45]:
And then I started doing that on my own, started teaching leadership practices on my own, and then went back and I said, hey. Wait a minute. Here's a the same college, the same university is offering a doctorate degree in org leadership. So I said, yep. I gotta do that. So that's that's kinda how I got into this and been been working in the leadership era area ever since. And yeah.

David Hall [00:08:13]:
What were some early lessons? Like, what was it like, you know, to be on the police force for that amount of time and now being a leader in the police force?

Chris Fuzie [00:08:23]:
Well, a lot of the stuff I didn't understand. I didn't understand why certain things happen and and how they happen. And some for good reasons and and some just because my own ignorance. But then when I started learning about some of these things, I started realizing it was like, oh, yeah. That's why we do this. That's why but then other things saying, oh, we should have never been doing that. You know?

David Hall [00:08:47]:
Right. Right.

Chris Fuzie [00:08:48]:
Yeah. So a lot of it I found was was for positive purposes. It it reaffirms some of the things that I I did and wanted to do. And then a lot of it was, oh, we should have never been doing that. And and I was able to identify specific instances where that showed theories like in group, out group, how we socialize people, cohesion, that kind of stuff. So able to use the all of that. And then lately, with the followership stuff, I think back on the whole time that we're even in the academy, you're either a leader or a follower when you get sent to a call. You're either the primary or the backup or cover officers, some people call them.

Chris Fuzie [00:09:36]:
So if you're the primary, you're in the lead. You decide stuff. You make the decision. And the backup, they have their specific jobs that they're supposed to do. Keep you safe, watch background, and all that kind of stuff. And so, you know, I realized later on after after leaving the police department, we were actually practicing leader, follower, and transitioning during that time. And that we're taught that in the academy. And we never thought about it in those terms.

Chris Fuzie [00:10:05]:
But now I look back and that's what it was. That's what was happening. And you would you would get dispatched to a call and and so and so would be the the primary, and then you're the backup or you're the 1011. I call it 1011. So you're the 1011. So you knew what your role was. So immediately, you're getting you know what your role is. You know what you're supposed to be doing.

Chris Fuzie [00:10:25]:
And then if something happens to the primary or then you end up taking over. Or if it's something, like, I know that one couple times I get dispatched to I know a lot of people in Modesto. So I get dispatched to, you know, something that I know the people, and I would say, hey. You know, I shouldn't be primary on this and can somebody else say and then I would go there and say, hey. You know, this is a friend of mine. They're gonna handle it. You know? You and I have a relationship, so I'm gonna stay out of it, but I'm gonna make sure everybody's safe kind of thing. And so you you do change the the rules, and and I never really got that until way after leaving the police department and focusing on followership.

Chris Fuzie [00:11:07]:
Yeah. Pretty interesting.

David Hall [00:11:09]:
Yeah. And I think that happens often when people are in roles like you were in, and then now you're you get moved into leadership, and and it you you kinda see things like you're describing. Like, oh, I didn't realize that Uh-huh. Why that was done that way or, you know, this isn't a good way to do that.

Chris Fuzie [00:11:28]:
Right. Yeah. Yeah. I did it that so I was talking to somebody yesterday, and she said something about rereading something. And now she was looking at it from the followership point of view and she reread it. And I thanked her for for rereading it with new eyes. And that's I think that's how that occurs is that, you know, and she said, well, I think in in circles, I go, well, I'm glad because we never would have had this conversation if you hadn't. And so, you know, we tend to to go back and look at our our circumstances every day.

Chris Fuzie [00:12:05]:
Every day, we learn something new or get a new perspective or a new promotion with new eyes. And it's kind of fun to see that.

David Hall [00:12:12]:
Yeah. So, Chris, this conversation is really we're gonna be talking about leadership probably the whole time. Yeah. What would you say is your definition of a great leader?

Chris Fuzie [00:12:23]:
So in in my book, we talk I I can't say one thing or another because Yeah.

David Hall [00:12:29]:
I know it's a big question. Right.

Chris Fuzie [00:12:31]:
So I have to refer back to the the 86 behaviors that are in my in my book because that's how I came upon those. I would ask all of my classes, hey, what give me 2 traits or behaviors of great leaders. And so we get, you know, every class, and I would keep track of what they told me. And then we would go back and say, okay, are these things you also want in your followers? Right? And and everybody goes, yeah. Absolutely. So but I would you know, to boil it down, the leader needs to be who they need to be to deal with the situation at hand. And and I kinda kinda say that you have to be a chameleon because you have to match the situation. And a chameleon, you know, they match the the background and the, you know, the flora and fauna and everything there, and they can change colors and all that.

Chris Fuzie [00:13:26]:
But and and really, that's I think that's what a great leader does. A great leader looks at what's going on in the situation. Who are my followers? Who are my who are you know, what does the situation entail? Who can I get? What is the goal? All of those factors come into play. So to I think to be a great leader, you have to be flexible. You have to be thoughtful. You know? And I could go through and read all 86 behaviors, but those are gonna change depending on the situation. And and what's funny is that I've asked over and over again for people, you know, so what does it mean to be a great leader? And they give me these traits. And then I was able to boil them down to those 86 behaviors.

Chris Fuzie [00:14:13]:
Those are the ones that kept coming up over and over and over again. Sent out surveys. Hey. Are these what do you want? And and what I find interesting is that some of the behaviors that I thought would be ones that people want, not so much. People don't want to you don't have to be decisive all the time. You don't have to, you know, be charismatic. You don't have to all these things that you would traditionally think they want.

David Hall [00:14:40]:
Yeah. That's fascinating. And and I did notice that in reading your book. I I I was looking at the list, and charismatic was down in the bottom, like, you know, where you had things that 95% of the people were saying. Only 50% said and, you know, we talk a lot about introversion on this show, and, typically, that's not a gift of introverts. Definitely, introverts can be passionate and can be great leaders, but charismatic often isn't a thing. And sometimes, it's like it seems like just society is saying a great leader has to be charismatic. And so it was interesting to see that down just in the 50%.

David Hall [00:15:22]:
You know, so it definitely helps bust the myth for me. What do you think about that?

Chris Fuzie [00:15:30]:
Well, I I think that's true. We do have you know, there's a lot of people think you know, we still have, like, my generation and and some of the some of the ones before us that are still around, who still have the World War 2 great man theory kind of idea in their head and that you have to be the one that stands up. We all want a hero and and that's that's kind of how we are in the United States. You know, we all want a John Wayne. We all want a Captain America. We all want but realistically, that's not what a good leader is. A good leader is a lot of times working behind the scenes, talking to talking to people that make stuff happen that you never see, you know. And so I think a lot of these traits are are holdover traits.

Chris Fuzie [00:16:17]:
I don't know how else to say that, you know, that generationally, we still have that in in part of our culture. And so I think that's going to go away. I talk about leadership and followership changing a lot or or or transforming or evolving. I think that's part of what's gonna happen here is that when you look at the focus now shifting towards followership and the behaviors, and there's a lot of people starting to do research on the behaviors and the similar behaviors or shared behaviors of leaders and followers. And so they're starting to identify just like what I did. They're starting to but they're doing it even more so looking at these these behaviors. And I think what we're gonna find is that the behaviors that are more pluralistic, the behaviors that are more not soft or or, you know, but, like sorry. I would think about this out loud.

Chris Fuzie [00:17:19]:
Is that the the behaviors that are, like, emotional intelligence, you know, being empathetic, you know, that's really what it what it's about. I mean, you don't walk into our rows and say, I'm Captain America. You're going to be calm. You know, you don't do that. Right?

David Hall [00:17:39]:
Yeah. And we don't want that. No. That's the thing. Most most people don't want that kind of leadership. Right. What were what's you know, again, there's 86. Just what were some of the ones that came to the top?

Chris Fuzie [00:17:51]:
Well, some of the ones on the top, I'm I'm gonna look at them because I don't memorize all of this.

David Hall [00:17:56]:
That's right.

Chris Fuzie [00:17:58]:
Once people wanted a 100%. Now remember, this is both leaders and followers, not just leaders. So both leaders and followers, they said accountable, committed, competent. You think about competent, you know, like I had this discussion with one of my cops one day. He says, well, the chief of police didn't even know how to write a ticket. I go, I don't care if he knows how to write a ticket or not. I do care if he knows how to get our budget right or how to how to work with city council to get the right cars or more people or something like that. You know? So so competent could be that's one of those that it it's situational also.

Chris Fuzie [00:18:36]:
Conscientious

David Hall [00:18:37]:
on that, though, it's really interesting because it's it's really it's really those things that we don't do very often that we're not gonna know how to do. So to expect the chief of police to be able to write a ticket when he's never doing that is is very unrealistic,

Chris Fuzie [00:18:53]:
Right. Because

David Hall [00:18:53]:
we don't have the repetition of of of doing a certain thing. So Right. You know, and that those that's a good example of things come up with you people expect, well, they should be able to do this thing that I'm doing, but that's probably not a realistic expectation.

Chris Fuzie [00:19:07]:
Right. Right. And and what is their job loop entail. Right? Right. You know? And and could that officer go have a a conversation with the mayor and the city council about, you know, about grant funding. You know?

David Hall [00:19:20]:
Right.

Chris Fuzie [00:19:21]:
Yeah. So that's that it's really interesting that way because a lot of people don't think about it. They just think the boss should be able to do everything.

David Hall [00:19:28]:
Right. That's very unrealistic.

Chris Fuzie [00:19:30]:
Yeah. Couple of the other ones mentioned emotional intelligence, ethical, good listener, help others succeed, honest, intelligent, lead by example, perspective, problem solving, purpose. So that kinda goes along with the the book drive, you know, where it's purpose trying to remember what it is. Autonomy, mastery, and purpose are the three things that that Daniel Pink talks about there. Respect, self motivate, ensures success, and teachable, which I think is interesting that that comes up in the 100% is that somebody who's teachable, they don't know everything. Your bosses, they're not gonna know everything. You know, as long as somebody is teachable, you can move people forward. And and for me, that's that's a big factor when it comes to any kind of leadership is how do you get your people to do that for you?

David Hall [00:20:26]:
Yeah. So, Chris, you've written 3 books. We're definitely gonna I've been enjoying your latest liminal space, but tell us about the 3 books.

Chris Fuzie [00:20:36]:
So I I tend to say I wrote these books backwards because the first one called Because Why, Understanding Behavior and Exigencies, This was a direct result of what was happening right after I retired from police work and then what was happening in, like, Ferguson, Missouri and all that kind of stuff. And and it it it applies now also. But how do we how do we evaluate the behavior of people who have to act, who feel compelled to act, or who have to act in order to save themselves or other people? So the guy who landed captain Sully Sully, I forget his real name, Sully who landed the plane on the Hudson River, he knew what he could do. He had to break the rules and and disobey what he was told in order to save people's lives. We have to think about that. What are the things that are going on in their mind? How does time affect that? How does the the knowledge that they have, how the information that they have, the situation itself. You know, does that have some kind of inherent something that that people will I would I'm deathly afraid of fire. But I've gone into bill burning buildings to try and locate and see if there's anybody in that building.

Chris Fuzie [00:21:54]:
You know, and that's kinda hard to do. How do you get people to do that? And then how do you evaluate that behavior after the fact? So that book is all about evaluating behavior and looking at it after the fact. You have to and how you do it. And with that one, I have the exit response model that I built for that, and it talks about how it how you go from one to the other. And you're trying to get from a a chaotic, crazy event to something that's normal or semi normal, at least, you know, doable. And then you you look at the standards of what we've tried to do, the training, the education, the practicing, etcetera, and that's at the bottom. And then you look at the top is that you have to sometimes just make stuff up. You you have to eat and there's one part in there where I've got to look at it.

Chris Fuzie [00:22:49]:
The informative failure. And the informative failure is what says, this isn't working. I've tried all the things I'm supposed to try. This isn't working. I gotta do something different. And that's where people become innovative. That's where people go off script. That's where people start making stuff up, and it saves their lives or saves somebody else's lives or they do something that you would go, why would why did they do that? But it saves somebody's somebody else's life.

Chris Fuzie [00:23:17]:
People do that, and we have to be able to evaluate it. That's that that book. The middle book is Score Performance Counseling. And what that one is is how to change behavior through performance counseling. And what I do with that one, that one was specifically a research based book I took with the Office of Personnel Management. They do this survey every year, and every year they find basically the same results is that people don't wanna address poor performance. And then when they do address poor performance, they come up with these there's 7, but I I boiled it down to 6, 6 different things. They're not supportive.

Chris Fuzie [00:24:00]:
They're they're not clear. They're not they're not organized in how they do it. They don't sorry. Go ahead. They don't trying to think of what it they don't use the resources. They don't they don't they don't get each other involved in doing what they're supposed to be doing and come up coming up with a plan, and then they don't they don't follow-up. So score is about that, and it it goes through a whole method. So I took what their usual failures are.

Chris Fuzie [00:24:32]:
And out of those usual failures, I created score performance counseling. And it tells you it walks you through how to do a performance counseling without and and it takes away some of the the problems with accusing people even if you say, hey, you didn't do this right. As soon as you say you and you point at them, now it's an accusatory. Now you have conflict, so we don't do that. Take that away. Speak in I me my statement. Take the the behavior away from the person and put it somewhere. Even if I make a motion of grabbing it, even imaginary, grab it and put it on the table, and every time I talk about that behavior, I point to the behavior and I look at the behavior.

Chris Fuzie [00:25:19]:
What that sends the message to people subconsciously is it's it's not about me, it's about that. And so it makes it so much easier for people to do to do performance counseling and change behavior. That's why it's score performance counseling, change the behavior, and save the relationship. Because we want to save that relationship. Most people do performance counseling. They screw up the relationship because they do it wrong. And just witnessed that about 2 weeks ago. Here.

Chris Fuzie [00:25:49]:
Yeah. So Yeah. Yeah. Even though I I told them how they you know? Okay. Just go in, say this, do that, and he allowed a bunch of other stuff, and it it didn't work out well.

David Hall [00:26:01]:
Yeah.

Chris Fuzie [00:26:02]:
So yeah. And then and then liminal space is about creating behavior. So that's why I say I made I did them backwards. You know, you usually create it, change it, and then evaluate it, but it it is what it is.

David Hall [00:26:17]:
Alright. Well, tell us about it. Like like I said, I've been enjoying this book. Tell us about what is Liminal Leadership.

Chris Fuzie [00:26:24]:
So it's it's about leadership and followership, but it's too hard to say leadership or followership every single time. And then people still have this mental schema that followership is less than leadership. So if I just say liminal leaders, then people kinda get it. But when we talk about liminal leaders, we're talking about somebody who's stuck in between leading and following. They have to do both simultaneously. So a liminal leader is somebody who is like almost every middle manager, every school principal. I mean, name it. Even presidents, vice presidents, you know, they're they have to lead and follow at the same time.

Chris Fuzie [00:27:11]:
So for instance, here in I work at a district attorney's office. And here in the district attorney's office, I'm number 3 in in rank, I guess. It's the DA, the ADA, and then me. And and then we have a 160 other people in this office. So we have an elected official and he says this is the way I'm gonna do things. This is what I wanna do. I mean, it's law policy ethical, all that kind of stuff. And so he tells us this what I'm gonna do.

Chris Fuzie [00:27:42]:
Well, now I have to not only follow what he's telling me, but lead the other 160 people in that direction. So that's what I'm talking about when I talk about liminal space is that you're in that space where you have to lead and follow at the same time and you can't you can't you don't just lead and you don't just follow and you're not switching back and forth each time you're doing the same behavior. So again, we go back to this list of 86 behaviors. Is it possible to be courageous as a leader and as a follower at the same time? Yes. Is it possible to be proactive as a leader and a follower at same time? Yes. So these are behaviors that everybody wants, and they're leaders and followers. And so when we're in this liminal space where we're having to lead and follow simultaneously, that's where the behavior starts to become more important than the role or position. So that's kind of what I mean by liminal leaders.

David Hall [00:28:46]:
Yeah. So like you said, most people that are in leadership roles are also followers in some way. Why is it so important to understand that? What happens if someone doesn't understand that?

Chris Fuzie [00:28:57]:
Well, then they're gonna lean on the role, the positional power, or or they're not gonna do something that they should be doing. So let's say they focus on being the leader. Right? And and somebody gives them direction, they go, no. That's messed up. I'm not gonna do that. I'm gonna do this. They may be going off track and not being a good follower because they're not following what the person, I guess, the authority above them or the the other person with authority tells them they want done, now they're not they're not being a good follower. And then if they direct their other people in the leadership role, they direct other people to do something different.

Chris Fuzie [00:29:38]:
Now you're you're screwing up the whole process and and you're not really supporting that leader, which the follower should be doing. So it does create this I mean, if you focus on on the position, it creates this this power imbalance. And whereas, if you meld the 2 together and you focus on the behavior, then the power goes away, and and you're getting more of the behavior as the focus.

David Hall [00:30:04]:
Yeah. And as I was reading, one of my big takeaways was this, like, kind of collaborative mindset that, you know, you're working on a goal, but you do take both roles. So how do you how does someone that doesn't have that that isn't really looking at themselves as a follower, although they are, how do they develop that collaborative mindset?

Chris Fuzie [00:30:26]:
So with first, they have to understand their follower type, their follower, you know, how they are as a follower, their role as a follower. Without that, you you you're not gonna get there. So what I would suggest is Bruce Kelly came up with the follower. There's a survey. You take a survey and and see what kind of follower style you have. And so, you know, find out what kind of follower you are first and then say, okay, how does this fit with what what my leader wants me to do? What kind of follower am I? Because if you find that you're a a passive follower or even a, you know, alienated follower or some you you're gonna have a harder time being changing to being a good follower. You can be a great leader and a terrible follower. You're not gonna get much done.

Chris Fuzie [00:31:17]:
And your followers are gonna recognize, hey, wait a minute. It it this is where the walk the talk kind of thing comes in. If you you say do as I say, not as I do, and you just go do whatever you want and you expect everybody to do something else, then it's not gonna work. So you have to understand your followership style first, then look at your leadership style. Are you a person who's a power based person? Reward and punishment, expert power, referent power, that kind of what what is your power base? And so, you know, you want people to be a referent leader and be a and do things because they want people to respect them. And they they wanna do things out of respect and have respect for you. Well, if you're not doing that, you're gonna have a hard time putting those 2 together because you have to understand that you are a a certain type of leader, how you use connection power, how you use information power, all of that's gonna be important. So to to have this collaborative style, you have to understand all of that plus the goal.

Chris Fuzie [00:32:27]:
You know, so again, you know, what behaviors are you gonna need to meet all of these problems? So you understand the goal, what the goal is, you understand your type of power power base, where you lead from and where you follow from, that's going to make it easier for you to be a collaborative person, at least at least knowing yourself better and and avoiding your own pitfalls that you're going to you're going to experience.

David Hall [00:32:58]:
Yeah. And I also really was getting out of your book that it it's it's about what behaviors need to happen, you know, to get to get get to that goal. And you talk about tessellations. Tell us what that is.

Chris Fuzie [00:33:12]:
Oh my god. Okay. So so now we're talking now we're talking about math. Yeah. Yeah. So a tessellation is it's actually very simple concept. A tessellation is nothing more than, in mathematics anyway, it's a pattern of shapes that fit together and they fit together perfectly with no gaps or overlaps. Okay? So in nature you have tessellations.

Chris Fuzie [00:33:38]:
In art, you have tessellations. In architecture, you have tessellations. Think about a honeycomb. Right? That's the easiest one to think about. You have all these hexagons together. I mean, are they perfect? Man, maybe not. But all these hexagons together, they fit and they're so strong together, that's that's what creates the strength of that beehive is you have this tessellation. So you and you could do it with squares and triangles.

Chris Fuzie [00:34:06]:
Squares, equilateral triangles, and hexagons are regular polygons and what they do is they're they fit together without without you you can fit them together without any kind of overlap or those are regular polygon. Then you can have an irregular tessellation, which is like a different shape. If you look at some of this some of the artworks, you know, where you have where you have first it shows birds flying and then they kind of morph into now it becomes a building or something like that. You see, those are irregular tessellations. You're you're creating the same pattern over and over again that covers the surface of the plane. So in the book, we talk about tessellations as in tessellations of behaviors. Imagine if you could apply the same idea of if you want pick any any three behaviors, if you want everyone to be teachable, or you want everyone to to be resilient, or everyone to be inspiring, You can teach once you know what the the behavior is that you want, you can identify it, you can define it. If you can define it, you can teach it.

Chris Fuzie [00:35:24]:
If you can teach it, you can observe it. And if you can observe it, you can evaluate it. And so for any manager, any supervisor who's had to do evaluations and you say, okay. This person is professional. What does that mean? Right? But if you say, not only are they teachable, but they're I forget the words I use. Resilient. Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Fuzie [00:35:48]:
Right? Now you've defined behaviors that you can actually say, yes. This person learned how to do this behavior. It's just like teaching somebody how to make a widget. If I could teach them how to make a widget and they become the best widget maker, right, Okay. What does it mean to be a be a good widget maker? You ex you explain the process. What does it mean to be, you know, in this other position? If you can if you could teach these behaviors and then you spread those behaviors out throughout your entire organization, everybody knows what to expect.

David Hall [00:36:22]:
So the idea is you come up with these core behaviors that everybody can understand, and you can articulate them. And and is that the is that the idea?

Chris Fuzie [00:36:32]:
Yes. That's absolutely the idea. So most organizations, the top of the organization is the strategic part. And then in the middle of the organization, you have the tactical. And then in the the bottom of the organize and I say bottom, but it doesn't have to be a bottom. The front line, you know, you have the operations part. Well, for the triangle, the triangle, which is a a good tessellation, the triangle is one of the strongest shapes there is just because the way it's formed. So the triangle has 3 sides, 3 behaviors.

Chris Fuzie [00:37:09]:
These are your 3 strategic behaviors that you want everyone to be able to do. Right? And and ideally that would come from the 100% group. So ethical, competent, and accountable. Let's just use those. Then the 4 in the in the tactical area, so now you know that that's what that's what your your upper manager, your c suite is being held to those three behaviors. Then your your middle managers, let's say, empathetic, flexible, open minded, and proactive. So we use those 4 for those people that are the middle managers. Okay.

Chris Fuzie [00:37:51]:
These are the things we're looking for. This is how we're gonna get stuff done and pass it on to our our operations section. And then in the operations section, you use the hexagon. So now you're using the 3 and that's why I use those three shapes, 3 core, 4 core, and 6 core. But if you wanna do 2 or 4 at the top and you wanna you know, whatever you choose to do, but instead of trying to how many mission statements have you memorized? Right? Instead of trying to

David Hall [00:38:26]:
Right. Right? Yeah.

Chris Fuzie [00:38:28]:
Okay. So here's the mission statement, the value statement, the, the goal statement, and then, you know, I mean, you memorize all that. Well what does that mean to my job? No. I'm a key punch operator. What does that mean to my job? I don't I don't know. But if I say I want you to be teachable and and come up with these other things, and then they understand what specific behaviors they have to do. So that's that's kind of why those that structure is because most organizations are structured that way.

David Hall [00:39:03]:
Yeah. So tell us about this project you're also working on leader Leaderology. What is that?

Chris Fuzie [00:39:10]:
Well, that when when I first heard this term leaderology, I went, well, that's funny. Yeah. But you you have biology. Right? You have psychology. We we even have mixology for people who mix drinks.

David Hall [00:39:27]:
Yeah.

Chris Fuzie [00:39:28]:
So we have all of these ologies, which is just the study of. And so I started I I met with another guy, and we started talking about this. And he had this whole big idea, and he he kinda proposed this idea of starting an organization about leaderology. And I said, well, tell me more about that. So we start talking about this and his name is David Robinson, doctor David Robinson. And he starts telling me about this leaderology stuff. And and really, it it is kind of fascinating because we are talking about the scientific study of leadership. And so that takes in all sorts of different aspects.

Chris Fuzie [00:40:11]:
But how many colleges and universities have leadership studies? And big money leadership studies. Right? And and bachelor's, master's, and and PhD level, EdD level leadership studies, that's leaderology. They're studying leadership. That's leaderology. So we said, hey, wait a minute. We also have all these coaches and people doing coaching who have no idea, who have never studied leadership, never studied the theories of leadership. And they're out coaching people. They're telling people, you know, I mean, okay.

Chris Fuzie [00:40:52]:
So let's say I I ran a flower shop successfully for 25 years. And now I become a leadership coach. Okay. So I'm gonna go to a a car dealership and tell them how to run a car dealership based on my flower shop experience? Come on. So and then I usually find out from these people how they're doing when I I'll say, okay. Well, what how does the theory of cohesion work with this? And they can't answer the question. But so a leaderologist is somebody who has actually studied leadership. So what they're doing in the colleges and universities.

Chris Fuzie [00:41:32]:
And we started the National Leaderology Association based on that is that we will verify based on their transcripts, their degrees. We'll go through that and we'll verify that this person, yes, has been trained, does have, you know, has passed these kind of class, and they do have these degrees that show that they have studied leadership. And so that's what leaderology is about. And we're trying to trying to push that as as, you know, like, I don't know. Let me go backwards a little bit. Psychology used to not be its own science. Psychology used to be part of sociology. But in the 18 I think it was 18 eighties.

Chris Fuzie [00:42:20]:
Okay. You don't quote me on that. But in the 18 yeah. So, you know, a bunch of people who are studying psychology as part of sociology, they said, hey. We need to have our own science. It it is our own science. It's separate and distinct. And so what we're doing is following their their lead.

Chris Fuzie [00:42:40]:
We're saying, hey, we're doing the same thing with leadership. Leadership is not part of everything else. As a matter of fact, you have all these other universities and colleges that have a specific leadership degree. Then we need to have our own science. And that's what leaderology is about. So and and if I'm hoping that it helps, like, with psychology, you get someone who's, you know, I mean, if if I have a an organizational problem that I need to deal with, I don't want somebody who's I mean, I work with 60 some or 50 some odd lawyers here. I don't want somebody who's just run a flower shop to come in here and try and say, this is this is what you need to fix some of these problems that you have organizationally. I want somebody who understands the theories of leadership.

Chris Fuzie [00:43:29]:
What what happens in socialization? What if you don't socialize someone correctly? What happens if you don't use stick them to get cohesion to work? What happens in team dynamics? Cohesion is part of a group structural dimension and a group process. What if you don't have cohesion? What's this what does that do to your team? So many different aspects that that are scientific scientifically proven that if somebody doesn't understand those, they may misdiagnose and mistreat the organization.

David Hall [00:44:03]:
Yeah. I think the comparison to psychology was really helpful for me just now because it's like, yeah, if you want a psychologist to treat some particular thing, they need to have a a certain set of knowledge. Right. And so if you need someone as a leadership consultant, they should have a certain set of knowledge. Right? Correct.

Chris Fuzie [00:44:24]:
Is that what you're saying? But right now, the the the field is wide open. Yeah. There's there's no there's no regulation. I'm I'm not for a ton of regulations. Believe me.

David Hall [00:44:35]:
Right. Right. Right.

Chris Fuzie [00:44:36]:
You know, having been a cop for for a lot of years, I'm I'm done. I'm done with that. Right. And I don't wanna be the the leader, you know, the leadership enforcer.

David Hall [00:44:47]:
Right.

Chris Fuzie [00:44:48]:
But then the other side of that is, are people getting ripped off? Are people be being led down the wrong road? I talked to one consultant leadership consultant. And her comment was, well, you just all you have to do is ask the right questions and the client will find their own way. I said, well, what if you ask the right questions or you ask the questions and the client still starts going off the wrong way? How do you know? And she said, well, really we don't. It's what the client wants. So, no. You know, I'm not gonna go to a medical doctor and say, hey, it hurts up here. And then he starts checking my stomach and I go, no, it's not my stomach. It's it's up here.

Chris Fuzie [00:45:31]:
And, you know, no, I'm not gonna go to that doctor.

David Hall [00:45:35]:
Right.

Chris Fuzie [00:45:35]:
So right. Or get a second opinion. I mean, the same thing. So, I mean, that that's kinda what the Leaderology stuff is, and it's it's it doesn't doesn't sound normal, and probably because it's new. But but I think it's gonna take off because followership is also part of leaderology because followership is part of the process of leadership. And so that's what's happening as people are starting to to look at that now. So that's why Leaderology is

David Hall [00:46:07]:
kind of important. Chris, this has been a wonderful conversation. It went by really fast. Yeah. Is there anything else you wanna add that we haven't talked about yet?

Chris Fuzie [00:46:16]:
I have a new grandbaby. Hey. Congratulations. Yeah. Thanks.

David Hall [00:46:20]:
That's awesome.

Chris Fuzie [00:46:21]:
That's been the focus for about the last week. So

David Hall [00:46:24]:
Yeah. But Very cool.

Chris Fuzie [00:46:25]:
Yeah. But there is one other thing that that that I I wanna touch on is and this has to do with being an introvert is that the the idea of of leadership is not it it doesn't define us. You know, being an introvert doesn't define us. Being charismatic doesn't define us. All of those things. So, you know, we we tend to put these labels on on things and people, and and I hate that. You know? It it we need to stop doing that. We need to start talking about people as people.

Chris Fuzie [00:47:02]:
And and when we start talking about behaviors, then we don't focus on, you know, are they a leader? Are they a follower? Are they an introvert or an extrovert or charismatic or whatever? It it doesn't matter. Let's talk about the behaviors that need to we need to do to get things done. And that's that's kinda where my focus is is is in the behavior based leadership studies. Let's do everything based on behavior.

David Hall [00:47:28]:
Yeah. And if, you know, with labels like introvert or extrovert, if that's all you know, it's not helpful. But this show is definitely getting behind that. What does it mean? Where where are your strengths? What are your needs? And, again, like you're saying, you know, how do you get those behaviors done? So

Chris Fuzie [00:47:45]:
Right. Yeah. And if we can teach the behaviors that we want yeah. Every organization is different. And and this is kind of an interesting factor is that when you start looking at all these leader leadership theories and applying them, they work well for good organizations, and they also work well for bad organizations. It works for gangs. It works for, you know, the mafia. It works for yeah.

Chris Fuzie [00:48:11]:
So so, you know, the that's why we need to look at the behavior and what the behavior does.

David Hall [00:48:17]:
Yeah. Alright. Well, where can people find out more about the great work you're doing, Chris?

Chris Fuzie [00:48:23]:
Well, if they wanna look me up online, www.cmf leadership.com, I have that. Score Performance Counseling has its own website. So and that's just Score Performance. It's longer than heck, but it's just scoreperformance counseling.com. You can find it there. You can also find the the books on Amazon. They're all on Amazon. So, yeah, that's that's where to get a hold of

David Hall [00:48:47]:
me. Alright. Well, thanks again for this great conversation.

Chris Fuzie [00:48:50]:
Oh, thank you. I really appreciate being here. I hope I didn't talk too much.

David Hall [00:48:54]:
It was it was awesome.

Chris Fuzie [00:48:56]:
Okay. Cool.

David Hall [00:48:57]:
Thank you so much for joining me today. I look forward to further connecting with you. Reach out at david@quietstrong.com or check out the quiet and strong dot com website, which includes blog posts and links to social media channels. Send me topics or guests you would like to see on the show. If you're interested in getting to know yourself better, there's now a free type finder personality assessment on the Quiet and Strong website. This free assessment will give you a brief report, including the 4 letter Myers Briggs code, and you can also have the option of purchasing the full report if you'd like to learn more. I'll add a link to the show notes. So many great things about being an introvert, and we need those to be understood.

David Hall [00:49:38]:
Get to know your introverted strengths and needs, and be strong.