Ep 191 - Visual Mapping for Better Communications with guest Christoph Steinlehner

Have you ever wondered why traditional meetings often lead to confusion and unproductive discussions?

In this episode of The Quiet And Strong Podcast, host David Hall sits down with Christoph Steinlehner, an experienced product management coach who shares his innovative approach to transforming meeting dynamics through visual mapping. Listeners will explore how this method can turn scattered, ego-driven conversations into focused, collaborative work sessions that yield clear and actionable outcomes.

 If you're tired of endless, unfocused meetings and looking for practical ways to enhance your team's productivity, this episode is a must-listen. Discover how visual maps can serve as powerful tools to clarify thoughts, gather diverse perspectives, and foster better communication, all while saving time and reducing frustration.

Tune in to learn from Christoph Steinlehner's valuable insights and take your meeting facilitation skills to the next level—embrace the power of visual mapping, and be strong.

Episode Link: QuietandStrong.com/191

Christoph Steinlehner is a Product Management Coach. He helps Product Managers and Leaders who feel stuck in their work, caught up in endless detail discussions, and struggling to facilitate between different perspectives. 

Christoph's unique approach externalizes perspectives through visual mapping to facilitate discussions and align decisions.

Connect with Christoph:

Substack: https://mapperclub.substack.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/csteinlehner/

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David Hall

Author, Speaker, Educator, Podcaster

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Transcript

Christoph Steinlehner [00:00:00]:
So we often go into meetings without any preparation, but also without any artifact. So we even don't have an object of discussion. We go in there and randomly talk oftentimes. And I discovered when I was in the same situation years ago when I was, like, jumping from meeting to meeting that I took, like, notes and put my thoughts together as always in, like, visualizations. And when I mean visualizations, I don't mean, like, nice pictures and I can't draw. I'm really a bad even failing with with basic stick figures. But I can put, like, thoughts on sticky notes or in boxes, connect them with a couple of arrows and make sense out of this.

David Hall [00:01:06]:
Hello, and welcome to episode 191 of the Quiet and Strong podcast, especially for introverts. I'm your host, David Hall and the creator of quietandstrong.com. This is a weekly podcast dedicated to understanding the strengths and needs of introverts along with strategies for success. Introversion is not something to fix, but to be embraced. Normally, we'll learn each episode on Monday morning. Be sure to subscribe on your favorite platform. Leave a review or a rating. That would mean a lot to me and help others find the show.

David Hall [00:01:36]:
Tell a friend about the podcast. Help get the word out there that introversion is a beautiful thing. Christoph Steinleiter is a product management coach. He helps product managers and leaders who feel stuck in their work, caught up in endless detailed discussions, and struggling to facilitate between different perspectives. Christophe's unique approach externalizes perspectives through visual mapping to facilitate discussions and align decisions. Alright. Well, welcome to the quiet and strong podcast, Christophe. So good to have you on today.

Christoph Steinlehner [00:02:10]:
Thank you, David. It's amazing to be here. Thank you for having me here. And I'm looking forward to talk about meetings and how to make them more inclusive and more enjoyable for also introverts.

David Hall [00:02:28]:
Yeah. And and and when I heard about the work you're doing, that's that's what drew me to yeah. I I gotta have you on the podcast because as an introvert, I have a lot of great ideas, and they're clear to me. But I know that I need to make them, you know, clear to others, and we're gonna get into all that. Let's start with just tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got to where you're doing the work you're doing now.

Christoph Steinlehner [00:02:53]:
Yeah. So right now, I'm working as a product management coach and consultant. But, of course, I didn't start my career in this. I originally started in web development and web design and then doubled down on the design part. So I worked many years in different design roles for interactive exhibitions, but then also a lot for digital products. And in there I slowly moved into product management. So now for many years, I worked as a product manager and product leader. Did that often also then in interim roles.

Christoph Steinlehner [00:03:34]:
And they're a huge part was then coaching, teaching, and I enjoyed that so much that I'm now focusing completely on this term for the last couple of years.

David Hall [00:03:46]:
Alright. So you talk a lot about meetings and visually mapping things. What what are you seeing in general is is going on in our current meeting culture?

Christoph Steinlehner [00:03:57]:
Yeah. So I so when I work with my clients, and I also hear that, like, from friends, colleagues, from everybody that our meeting culture is off meeting after meeting, and the results of a meeting is like, okay. When can we meet again? Because we didn't really come to a point. We did just, like, randomly discuss something, ran into a rabbit hole. We had, like, misunderstanding things things. And then in the meetings itself, of course, it's just talking is a format which works for some people, especially people who can, like, be spontaneously eloquent and convincing. And then also, of course, we have, like, the whole notion of, like, egos and authority meetings and the presentation mode and, like, all these things. I think nothing I'm just stating now should be a surprise, but it's tricky to come out of this mode as I've seen.

David Hall [00:04:59]:
Yeah. And I I bet almost everybody listening can relate to what you're saying, you know, with too many meetings, ineffective meetings, all that. So how can we communicate better and make meetings better?

Christoph Steinlehner [00:05:13]:
So the first thing is to start to change a little bit the format. So we often go into meetings without any preparation, but also without any artifact. So we even don't have an object of discussion. We go in there and randomly talk oftentimes. And I discovered when I was in the same situation years ago when I was, like, jumping from meeting to meeting that I took, like, notes and put my thoughts together as always in, like, visualizations. And when I mean visualizations, I don't mean, like, nice pictures and I can't draw. I'm really bad even failing with with basic stick figures. But I can put, like, thoughts on sticky notes or in boxes, connect them with a couple of arrows and make sense out of this.

Christoph Steinlehner [00:06:19]:
And as soon as I started to bring this into conversations, the dynamic changed. So I'm now like for years now work a lot in meetings with the tool of visual maps and really supporting the conversation with this and anchoring the conversation around visual maps.

David Hall [00:06:42]:
Yeah. And so largely, this is an audio podcast, so we're talking about visual things. So just right up front, tell the listeners how they can get a preview of what we're talking about. So they might even wanna look at that now.

Christoph Steinlehner [00:06:56]:
Yeah. So we will I think we will talk a little bit about the mapper methods I developed, and there is a small, a small guide to the mapper method. It's currently in preview mode. So it's free and you can reach out to me at best via LinkedIn and just hit me up, and I will send you the PDF, and you can follow through. It has a small example in there which illustrates, like, how the method works and how you can integrate this in your usual daily work.

David Hall [00:07:29]:
Yeah. Absolutely. And, we are I think most everybody were visual. You know, I was in a meeting where there weren't any visuals, and there was a lot of confusion, and we were talking circles around each other because we weren't really on on the same page.

Christoph Steinlehner [00:07:45]:
Yeah. That sounds familiar. So the the the secret is a little bit to really write it on the wall, and I think that that the funny thing is we I think most of us enjoyed some workshop. We worked in in some group settings where we structured our thoughts, and we looked at things on the wall and went back and forth. But then we go back into our day to day me, meetings, and we lose this. We completely lose, like, this approach of true collaborate, collaboration in a meeting instead of just sitting around the table and talking to each other.

David Hall [00:08:24]:
Yeah. So tell us a little bit more about your mapper method. How did you come up with it?

Christoph Steinlehner [00:08:29]:
So the the first time I think I discovered really doing this deliberately was a few years ago. I was working at educational tech company. They wanted to change their business model. So they brought me in. They wanted to change from single license sales. So they are set sold their pros, products just 1 by 1. And, of course, they wanted to sell it to classes, to school, and also want to go into a subscription business. And the idea was, okay, it's pretty clear what we want to sell.

Christoph Steinlehner [00:09:05]:
We already know it. It's working. It should be easy to integrate this technically. So just have to change a little bit to shop and have to change a little bit in the licensing. It should be easy. This was like how I got into this process. And then exactly what we all know happened. I went from person to person.

Christoph Steinlehner [00:09:25]:
I worked with around 10 teams and we talked for an hour. I came out with more questions than answers, and I had to schedule another meeting. I did group meetings, and it was, like, horrible. It was really, like I I was at some point, like, okay. This this will never be done because I have no clue. But what I did is I mapped the whole customer journey. So from the customers learn about the product until they activate it and use the product. And I added my notes from this meeting to this, but this was, like, my notes.

Christoph Steinlehner [00:10:07]:
And as like with a design background, I thought like, okay, it's it's a method I use. Nobody will understand. It doesn't work for anybody. Right. But at some point I shared the thingy by accident more or less, And suddenly, our conversation changed because people could look at the thing and be so you know that here, this technical system is involved, but that's wrong. You're completely off the charts here. That's a different team. You have to talk to them.

Christoph Steinlehner [00:10:38]:
And in here, it could be way easier. You have, like, a wrong impression here. And we suddenly focused on talking about this thing instead of about I asked questions, people couldn't understand exactly what I was up to. They didn't have the context I had in my head. So I brought more or less my whole context and start to discuss about this. And with that, we pretty quickly could identify what the clear next steps are and where we have to investigate, where we can also prototype already and things like that. This was really the game changer for me.

David Hall [00:11:17]:
So you started out just doing your own preparation work?

Christoph Steinlehner [00:11:21]:
Exactly. Exactly. More or less by accident. It came to this. And after this job, I I started to work like that. I started really to bring into every conversation my current state of mind, my current visualizations of this, and that's also how the the method developed.

David Hall [00:11:45]:
And then so now how do you use it with others?

Christoph Steinlehner [00:11:50]:
Yeah. So I often train it. So bring people to use it, and we go through the steps together. So the steps of the mapper methods are pretty simple. They follow usual product development work. So the first step is to clarify yourself, clarify your thoughts because as long as it's in our head, we trick ourselves. We first map out whatever we know, what we assume, and then we go into interactions with our colleagues in a meeting setting, for example, and get their perspective. So instead of trying to convince somebody, we're asking for their feedback.

Christoph Steinlehner [00:12:34]:
We're asking for their input, what we got wrong, what is, like, an alternative to my view? What's their perspective? And we also work in usually, like, cross functional teams. So we have technical perspective, from marketing perspective, the sales perspective, and so on and so on. And together then we point out the assumptions. So we look at the thing and see, like, okay, here we are not sure, or this is looks like a risky endeavor. We should do something about that. And that's exactly the next step. So make a small plan and act on it, really identify the next actions because oftentimes we have. The situation that we just have too many options in front of us Looking at a map, it's pretty clear often.

Christoph Steinlehner [00:13:26]:
Okay, what's the first thing we should do? And then we go out, evaluate for the insights, like test something, go deeper into into research. And with that insights generated, we reflect on that and improve our map. So that map is not the thing. It's just the anchor to steer us through the process.

David Hall [00:13:50]:
But it functions as a guide. Right? It's instead of people just picking different rabbit holes to go down, it it kind of keeps people on track. It sounds like.

Christoph Steinlehner [00:14:00]:
Exactly. And it's so easy because you can, like, just point at a as soon as somebody gets into, like, a deeper discussion, you can ask them to, k, can you locate this on our map? And you pretty quickly discover also if you get, like, a lot of information at a point that it's getting obvious that you might maybe discussing something which is not really relevant at the moment. Yeah. Because you're visualizing it and you're putting it out there, and it gets obvious.

David Hall [00:14:32]:
So what, what kind of tools can you use to make a map?

Christoph Steinlehner [00:14:35]:
So you can be pretty easy if you're in a office setting, just take a bunch of sticky notes.

David Hall [00:14:43]:
So physical sticky notes,

Christoph Steinlehner [00:14:44]:
physical sticky notes on a wall hands. And you're

David Hall [00:14:50]:
done.

Christoph Steinlehner [00:14:50]:
Oftentimes we are now in virtual settings. So you can use a virtual whiteboard, which I often use. There are tools like Miro, mural, fiction. There are like endless selection of tools. In the end, you need to draw boxes or put virtual stickies on a wall, maybe an arrow between and write something on it. It's not about the tool. It's really about the technique and the method.

David Hall [00:15:17]:
Yeah. And I mean, some projects can be pretty extensive. How do you how do you how do you make it so that all the boxes can be seen in an extensive project, if that makes sense.

Christoph Steinlehner [00:15:33]:
Yeah. So the individual whiteboard, you can pretty easily zoom. In physical scenario, you walk back and forth with this Zoom, like, physically.

David Hall [00:15:45]:
Yeah.

Christoph Steinlehner [00:15:48]:
And, of course, it gets messy. And that's also the point because your work is often messy, and that's alright. And seeing this also helps you to concentrate. So if you see you're going into way too much detail, it gets obvious because you map it out. And if you have, like, no space left anymore, you probably are at some deep point where you either discard, like, the high level view a little bit or you see that, okay, we are way too much into detail. We should zoom out again also in our conversations.

David Hall [00:16:30]:
Yeah. And so we're kind of talking about this, but how does this help people get to common ground?

Christoph Steinlehner [00:16:36]:
The the funny thing is that as soon as you put something out and talk about the thing, instead talking to each other, it gets easier to get to the shared picture because when we talk to each other, it's pretty quickly that we go into a confrontational mode. So somebody is, like, attacking my perspective. And I automatically, it's human that we start to defend it. We're not rationalizing about it. Start to defend. And as soon as it's external, we can talk about the thing on the wall, and it gets less emotional. And also we can present alternative views and put them next to each other and discuss them. That's pretty hard to do in our brains to have, like, a couple of items and start to discuss them in our brains.

David Hall [00:17:36]:
So it becomes less personal. It's not about your idea, but it's about what needs to happen.

Christoph Steinlehner [00:17:42]:
Exactly. Exactly. Usually, you have, like, a common goal. And if you don't have a common goal, coming to this situation of conflict is healthy because you have to work through this. There is no way around. You can't just postpone it, which is most of the time not the best way to do it because you have the conflict emerges at a way later stage.

David Hall [00:18:07]:
Yeah. So I guess maybe before the first meeting, when you're preparing your your map, are you having a lot of conversations in advance with other, you know, 1 on ones? Or

Christoph Steinlehner [00:18:20]:
There's usually you have some idea about the situation. You get, like in digital products, you get some requests from users, you have some input from users. You have like some, some people told you like what they're expecting and so on and so on. We have already something in our brain and I urge people to start to put that out and discover also, like, their open questions because usually they have open questions and also call them out in their model they're visualized. So it is totally fine if there's, like, a couple of question marks in between. And then I can come back together in a group, or I can go 1 on 1, depends a little bit on the situation, to get, like, a clearer picture to come to the shared understanding because that's our goal before, like, going into really deep actions and making some conclusions. 1st, really make obvious the different perspectives and come to this shared perspective.

David Hall [00:19:28]:
Yeah. So do you are you changing are you changing your map on the fly, like, in the meeting? Are you at whether it's actual sticky notes or whether it's your virtual whiteboard, you're you're changing it as you go through the meeting?

Christoph Steinlehner [00:19:44]:
Yeah. That that's a really important point. So the the the thing should be always moldable. You should always change it. It should never be that I did the thing and I'm not presenting it. Please, nobody touch it. It's. It's really that the documentation of your conversation more or less It's really a back and forth.

Christoph Steinlehner [00:20:07]:
And that's the nice thing about a low effort tool that you can quickly move a couple of boxes around, can quickly make a comment next to it, and so on. It's it's really like working on a piece to come together about, like, k. That's what we mean together.

David Hall [00:20:29]:
Yeah. So it's a work in progress rather than maybe giving PowerPoint presentation. Like, here's the here's here's here's how it is versus we're gonna collaborate and work on this together.

Christoph Steinlehner [00:20:40]:
Exactly. Exactly. And that's also, like, one thing we see often in meetings is PowerPoint presentations. And power presentations are great for convincing people and selling something. It's really a communication tool to get my point across against all barriers. But in 90% of our work interaction, that's not what we are after. We need the input from other people. We need the interaction with other people.

Christoph Steinlehner [00:21:12]:
And the PowerPoint is really the one of the worst tools to do this, because nobody will jump up and be, oh, on slide this, the 3rd point is wrong. And then you go into edit mode and change it, and it's the it's not the tool for this.

David Hall [00:21:30]:
No. You're usually not changing a PowerPoint during a meeting.

Christoph Steinlehner [00:21:34]:
Exactly.

David Hall [00:21:36]:
So so how does this method help bring maybe someone that's sometimes people join projects after they've already started?

Christoph Steinlehner [00:21:43]:
Yeah. So it's, it's also like, as I described in my case back when I was at this company, it was a great tool to speed people up because, like, we already had, like, hours and hours of of conversations about the thing. And repeating everything would be probably like a 2 hour. I explain everything to you and you most likely won't keep it in your head. But I can walk somebody through this map, explain the point, and they also can then take their own time and have, like, another look at it. And have, like, on the afternoon, take an hour and really look through this, maybe comment on that, write down their questions, which is still unclear for them. So it's an artifact which is in our conversation, but also in our thinking time. Quite helpful to, yeah, to reference and to look at.

David Hall [00:22:51]:
So, I mean, obviously, it seems like this method would save time and save money. Is that is that the is that the case? Are there other benefits?

Christoph Steinlehner [00:23:04]:
Yeah. On on one hand, that's the case because you get into discussions way earlier. So you save time often in the long term. Maybe it's a little bit more effort to get started. It's a little bit more effort to bring everybody together to map. But you have this clear picture. You don't repeat yourself again and again in follow ups. And also you often discover, like, easier solutions, easier conclusions than what you would have in talking.

Christoph Steinlehner [00:23:40]:
And I I'm sure like, I've seen a lot of people in in projects where they are in some, like, analysis paralysis. So they are talking again the same topic again and again. It's getting repeated. It's getting like, oh, we are unsure. We have to do more and so on and so on. It's unconclusive. And with a map, you can pretty quickly define like, okay, that's the main leverage point. This is, for example, where a customer needs to go through the step to come to even, like, the slater steps in the process.

Christoph Steinlehner [00:24:19]:
So we can first, like, concentrate on the first step, prototype this, test this with users, and get some insights there before we try to figure out everything in the endless discussions.

David Hall [00:24:32]:
Yeah. Yeah. There definitely can be endless discussions. So, you know, we're probably might still need to have many meetings, but it could be many less meetings. Right?

Christoph Steinlehner [00:24:42]:
Exactly. There are less meetings and more productive meetings also. That's that's really the key. There is way more outputs of this meetings and way more clarity.

David Hall [00:24:54]:
Yeah. And as I said in the beginning, I I in many different ways, I've been trying to share my ideas more visually. Again, I I'm an introvert. I'm a deep thinker. I have ideas nonstop, but, you know, people can't see that. And so to try in various ways to make ideas more visual, share more visuals. Why why is it so important that we share things visually with people?

Christoph Steinlehner [00:25:20]:
It just has a completely different bandwidth. So when we're talking, it's quite narrow. We can put word after word. It's linear. When we visualize, we can explore things. We can see connections, which are completely hidden if we are in a in a linear talking track. So looking at a picture and discussing this picture really sparks new ideas, and it has just much more bandwidth. But we can everybody knows of this.

Christoph Steinlehner [00:25:56]:
We look at a picture. We can process this in seconds and know what it's about. Getting like, explain the picture. Yeah.

David Hall [00:26:05]:
And and know that we're talking about the same thing. Again, sometimes I think when we're not using visual representations, we don't have a shared understanding.

Christoph Steinlehner [00:26:15]:
Yeah. Totally. Totally. Yeah. It's so common that people talk and talk and talk and go out of a meeting and, like, oh, yeah. Finally, I made my point. They go into the next interaction with the same person. It's just like, oh, no.

Christoph Steinlehner [00:26:29]:
They completely understand understood something different.

David Hall [00:26:33]:
Yeah. So if someone hasn't been doing something like this and this is new to them, how do they get started? So

Christoph Steinlehner [00:26:43]:
really write down your thoughts and order them. Oftentimes if you think about a customer journey or something like that, start with their final point. So start with, I have an example in the, in the map guide about the tea timer, the final step for the customer is they have a cup of tea. And then think about the first step. So what what do they have to do as a first thing? And it's probably open this tea time app, and then you fill out the steps in between. Then you have your first overview, and then you can add more detail or remove some detail. And then you can add, like, other layers of information. But it's pretty easy to just put what's in your head and bring this in some order.

Christoph Steinlehner [00:27:31]:
Maybe you're connected also with errors. So in this guide, you can get from me, there's, like, one example of using 2 techniques, the service blueprint and the assumption map, but there are many more. So they're also like 3 visualizations, things like that. All of them you saw before, all of them are quite natural, so it's not a crazy science.

David Hall [00:28:01]:
So as as the person leading the meeting, would you develop the start of a map ahead of time and share it ahead of time, or how does that

Christoph Steinlehner [00:28:09]:
work? Yeah. That that often works best. So especially if you're using this newly, it's easier to have some time and think through your perspective and then come into this and challenge this perspective with others. If you're more, like, used to work this way, you can also approach this as a group. But facilitating this and you're new to this can get a little bit, like, too much in the beginning.

David Hall [00:28:37]:
Yeah. Yeah. So back to the beginning when we said that, you know, you you definitely saw some issues with the meeting culture.

Christoph Steinlehner [00:28:46]:
Mhmm. How

David Hall [00:28:46]:
would you sum up that this is really helping with those issues?

Christoph Steinlehner [00:28:51]:
It really gets you out of this one person talks and everybody's listening because everybody look at the map and people can point things out. And it helps us a little bit like with the power dynamics because it's way easier to critique the thing instead of critique your boss in a meeting, for example. So even if your boss put out some some idea there, there is no name to it next to the sticky. And if, like, 10 minutes after, you say, like, okay, but I have a different idea here, it doesn't get personal. It's just like you get on the thing. So with that, you have an output, you go out of meeting. And even if you know you have to go deeper and do more, you your step is saved. It's a little bit like a safe button.

Christoph Steinlehner [00:29:48]:
You go out of the meeting. And whatever you talked about is in the map. And then you can revisit this and go really into deciding mode what to do next with the thing.

David Hall [00:30:01]:
Yeah. And so how is that better? You know, most meetings, people are taking notes. Right? And you might have a bullet point bullet points of things that were covered. How is this better than that?

Christoph Steinlehner [00:30:14]:
So I never saw a meeting, and you might have, David, where, like, people come into the next meeting with their notes and add to this notes and

David Hall [00:30:27]:
Yeah.

Christoph Steinlehner [00:30:27]:
Like, enrich the picture. But we have oftentimes notes. Probably nobody reads that. Maybe now AI reads it and makes a short version of it to remind you roughly about what was talked the last time, but it's always like a huge compression. It's always like not the actual progress doesn't show your product development, your process, whatever you're talking about. It doesn't represent the thing. It's really obstructed, and a map is also, of course, an abstraction, but usually way nearer to your actual conversation.

David Hall [00:31:12]:
Yeah. Because the bullet points aren't put together in the nice puzzle that, you know, the project is. It doesn't connect all the pieces. It's just you know, here's this thing we talked about and this thing, but it doesn't show how the it all fits together.

Christoph Steinlehner [00:31:27]:
Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And and also this, like, this maps, if you see them to little like a and you remember the conversation you had about it. So are there we had this discussion. We came to this conclusion. It's captured here in a long, like meeting notes and you have done 20 of them after 20 meetings. Where do you find, like, this when did we have what discussion?

David Hall [00:32:00]:
Yeah. Yeah. And, again, I'm it's it's really becoming clear for me that those notes don't fit, you know, in a in a any kind of process or or Yeah. You know, method or anything like that.

Christoph Steinlehner [00:32:12]:
Yeah.

David Hall [00:32:13]:
But that's what a lot of people are doing.

Christoph Steinlehner [00:32:16]:
Yeah. And I think they're coming just from a documentation standpoint. So if you want to have, like, documentation of something and you need to have a protocol, you need to have, like, as you are sitting in a in a criminal case. Yeah. Of course. Then maybe a protocol and meeting notes make sense, but doesn't really make sense to them, work artifact most of the time.

David Hall [00:32:42]:
Yeah. Yeah. So like I said, this is very helpful. I think we all need to have, you know, a visual that we're all working on, that we're collaborating on, we can get to common ground. This has been a great conversation. Is there anything else that you wanna talk about that we haven't had it?

Christoph Steinlehner [00:32:59]:
Well, I just encourage people to start to try new methods. So I think mapping is really like, something that's so low barrier. You can just start it and really encourage people to to try things if they're frustrated with their current situation. And oftentimes, it's the small changes which make a breakthrough.

David Hall [00:33:27]:
Yeah. Absolutely. And so, again, people can reach out to you on LinkedIn. I'll put your LinkedIn in the show notes, and you can give them a preview of of your map or method.

Christoph Steinlehner [00:33:38]:
Exactly. Yeah. Thank you so much. Please reach out. Also, always happy to, like, get feedback on this stuff, discuss this, discuss your situation when you think that's totally not fitting. 99% it fits, but I'm always curious to hear more cases and also develop my methods further.

David Hall [00:34:02]:
Alright. Thanks again, Christophe. This has been a wonderful conversation.

Christoph Steinlehner [00:34:06]:
Thank you so much for having me.

David Hall [00:34:08]:
Thank you so much for joining me today. I look forward to further connecting with you. Reach out at david@quietandstrong.com, or check out the quietandstrong.com website, which includes blog posts and links to social media channels. Send me topics or guests you would like to see on the show. If you're interested in getting to know yourself better, there's now a free type finder personality assessment on the Quiet and Strong website. This free assessment will give you a brief report, including the 4 letter Myers Briggs code, and you can also have the option of purchasing the full report if you'd like to learn more. I'll add a link to the show notes. So many great things about being an introvert, and we need those to be understood.

David Hall [00:34:49]:
Get to know your introverted strengths and needs, and be strong.