Ep 195 - Embracing Introverted Strengths with guest Sarah Manley

Do you ever wonder how to harness the quiet power within? In this week’s episode of The Quiet and Strong Podcast, host David Hall welcomes Sarah Manley, a life and career coach for introverts and founder of The Quiet Catalyst. Join us as Sarah shares her journey from a demanding corporate marketing career to empowering introverts to thrive in their authentic selves.

Listeners will learn the nuanced art of discovering how to embrace their unique strengths, and understanding the role of reflective thinking in effective leadership. Sarah and David debunk myths around introversion, offer practical tips for managing energy in bustling workplaces, and highlight the significance of understanding and leveraging personal strengths in career growth.

Tune in to hear how introverts can excel in people-centric leadership roles, gain confidence in setting boundaries, and contribute to collaborative team efforts by combining their reflective insights with open communication.

Whether you're an introvert seeking validation and strategies, or an extrovert aiming to better understand the introverts in your life, this episode is brimming with insights for everyone. Listen, learn, and be strong.

Episode Link: QuietandStrong.com/195

Sarah Manley is a seasoned professional with two decades of international corporate experience in the UK and the Netherlands. A life and career coach, mentor, and Amazon #1 bestselling author, she is dedicated to helping introverts thrive in their careers without the need to "fake it till they make it." After a pivotal career shift, Sarah founded The Quiet Catalyst to challenge the status quo of what it means to be an introvert in the corporate world. An advocate for sustainability, she enjoys hiking, running, yoga, and reading, blending her wisdom with a deep understanding of the quiet strength introverts possess.

Connect with Sarah:

Website: TheQuietCatalyst.com
LinkedIn: sarahmanleytqc

Get Sarah's Book: The Quiet Catalyst

- - -

Contact the Host of the Quiet and Strong Podcast:

David Hall

Author, Speaker, Educator, Podcaster

quietandstrong.com
Gobio.link/quietandstrong
david [at] quietandstrong.com

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Transcript

Sarah Manley [00:00:00]:
The first thing that I often start with is figuring out for that person what's really important to them and how do they judge in themselves what's important. And the reason I start with that sometimes is we're not very good at identifying strengths in ourselves because we assume that what we can do naturally is just very normal, and everybody can do that. Right? And then, no. That's not the case, actually. What you can do is, let's say, analysis, strategic thinking, connecting the dots, empathy, whatever it might be, is very special and doesn't come naturally to everybody. And a lot of people get quite a shock about that because, again, they've been benchmarking themselves versus other people who are good at the more obvious outward stuff and not the more inward focused stuff.

David Hall [00:01:06]:
Hello, and welcome to episode 195 of the Quiet and Strong podcast, especially for introverts. I'm your host, David Hall. I'm the creator of quiet and strong dot com. This is a weekly podcast dedicated to understanding the strengths and needs of introverts along with strategies for success. Introversion is not something to fix, but to be embraced. Normally, we'll air each episode on a Monday. Be sure to subscribe on your favorite platform. Leave a review or a rating.

David Hall [00:01:31]:
That would mean a lot to me and, of course, help other people find the show. Tell a friend about the podcast and help get the word out there that introversion is a beautiful thing. Sarah Manley is a seasoned professional with 2 decades of international corporate experience in the UK and the Netherlands. A life and career coach, mentor, and Amazon number one best selling author, she is dedicated to helping introverts thrive in their careers without the need to fake it till you make it. After a pivotal career shift, Sarah founded the quiet catalyst to challenge the status quo of what it means to be an introvert in the corporate world. An advocate for sustainability, she enjoys hiking, running yoga, and reading, blending her wisdom with the deep understanding of the quiet strength introverts possess. Alright. Well, welcome to the Quiet and Strong podcast, Sarah.

David Hall [00:02:23]:
Sarah, it's so good to have

Sarah Manley [00:02:25]:
you on today. Thank you for the invite.

David Hall [00:02:28]:
I'm really excited. Yeah. We're gonna get into the great book you have. Let's talk about, first, your journey as an introvert to now being an author and coaching

Sarah Manley [00:02:38]:
other introverts. Yeah. Sure. Sure. Sure. So, let's see. So I had a 20 year corporate marketing career. I went straight in after uni.

Sarah Manley [00:02:49]:
I studied geography of all things, and then I ended up in the health care industry. I always liked health care because it was quite quirky and interesting, and I could find out all kinds of fascinating niche things. So I enjoyed that that kind of space. And, you know, the way I would summarize that career is, on the outside, I looked really successful. I was getting promoted. Good stuff was happening. But my gosh, I was paddling really hard. In fact, one boss used to call me the swan.

Sarah Manley [00:03:18]:
He said, Sarah, I can see. On the surface, you look fine. It's like, you know, you're skating along, but I know how hard you're working underneath. And it was really true because I felt to be successful in that world, you have to be always on and on the stage and with everybody else and pushing and hustling and and all of this stuff. Very stereotypical kind of alpha commercial type of leader. And my gosh, it was exhausting. Honestly, like several times, I would think, am I nearly burning out here? And I would be getting to the end of the day, getting to the end of the week, completely crashing, feeling worn out by by everything that was going on. And it wasn't until I was about 36, I took on my 1st director role.

Sarah Manley [00:04:12]:
And at that point, I had two things. 1, for the first time, I was given some really intensive coaching. And I was also gifted this book, which is Susan Cain's book, Quiet, which I'm sure everybody who listens to this will know and and love and have read it 5 times. And these were 2 big moments for me. Big big moments of, now it makes sense. Now I get why I feel like I do. So I can do all of this stuff. I can do all of the performance stuff, but, woah, this is why it takes so much.

Sarah Manley [00:04:49]:
And it was a real tipping point for me. It was a real tipping point in saying, now I get it. I can do all this successful stuff, but I can do it in a way that's more uniquely me, more genuinely me, authentically me. And after that point, my career felt completely different, completely different until I got moved redundant. So, of course, like many, many big global organization, lots of restructuring redundancies. And, year and a half ago now, it was my turn. And that was okay by me. You know, I've spent 20 years trotting about the world, leading teams here then everywhere.

Sarah Manley [00:05:29]:
That's my time. Put my hand up. My time to go. And then we'll we'll get into it some more, I'm sure. But what came next was pretty cool. A bit of a an adventure, a bit of a journey of discovery of who was I now at the age of what would I be, 41 at the time. And the book, I think, was a bit of therapy in some ways. The book emerged from this reflection period of who am I? What do I wanna do? And off the back of that, I set up my coaching and mentoring business, really with the intention of helping people like me.

Sarah Manley [00:06:04]:
So if I'd had that support earlier in my career, how could I have been more authentically me and less knackered all the time than I was in my twenties thirties? So that was really the intention by it all. And, yeah, the last 18 months of doing that has been an absolute joy. Really an absolute joy. I feel very fortunate.

David Hall [00:06:24]:
Yeah. Susan Cain's book has been mentioned a few times on this show, and it's a great book. I I highly recommend it too. What was the main message that you took away from it?

Sarah Manley [00:06:35]:
There's there's one quote that I sticks with me all the time, and it's a very simple one. It's very simple, which is it's okay to be an introvert. It's okay to be you. As simple as that, genuinely of thank you for the permission. And it's something that clients sometimes come to me now with saying, you know, I just need to be reminded that being an introvert isn't a crime. Because to be honest, Sarah, where I work, I feel talked over, pushed over, whatever, told to be louder and bolder all the time. Like, why am I so feeling so wrong and out of place? So I love that that sentiment. It's okay to be an introvert.

Sarah Manley [00:07:15]:
It's okay to be you. Thank you.

David Hall [00:07:19]:
So you read it while you were still working your your previous job. How did it change things, you know, with with your previous role?

Sarah Manley [00:07:28]:
Everything made sense. So, generally, everything the next day made sense. I got to the end level, can I sob? Like, proper belly sobs of relief that I wasn't odd. I wasn't weird. I was just different to many of my much more strongly extroverted colleagues. So what changed for me was permission to be myself and a recognition of the things that I'm good at are genuine strengths and are legitimately important strengths to have in the workplace. So things like, you know, being a really good listener, I felt had been really overlooked in my workplace because what appeared to be valued was talking fast, responding immediately, these sorts of things, and that's not my forte. I need to think.

Sarah Manley [00:08:23]:
I like to think. I like to move things over and let them marinate in my brain before I'm ready to put them out there. So finally, in this book, just that permission, like, actually, Sarah, what you do is really cool, and what you do is really important. So whilst your colleagues who, no disrespect to them, are also awesome awesome individuals, but just different to me. But what you will contribute by your slower pace, more reflective pace, and contribution is a massively important addition. So keep being you. Yes. Thank you, Susan.

David Hall [00:09:01]:
Yeah. It's it's so much it's like we are we're made to feel like we have to come up with things quickly all the time, and sometimes we do. Right? But what you're describing, that is our superpower. That is our gift to think think. Our our our ideas are well thought through. You know? And often they're they're great ideas because we spent the time, but sometimes we have to ask for that and also just acknowledge, hey. This is a gift of mine. You know? Let me think about that.

Sarah Manley [00:09:31]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that takes confidence. Takes confidence to say, I have an initial idea, but can I think about it and come back? That takes some confidence to to set that boundary and get that kind of agreement and not just be pushed to respond instantly and hope for the best. And, also, it's really deeply unsatisfying. Deeply unsatisfying, I think, to have thing to con to keep behaving in that that way is is kinda yuck.

David Hall [00:10:06]:
Yeah. And I think part of gaining that confidence is understanding I have this great strength. And if you understand that you have a great strength of thinking and thinking deeply, that can give you confidence and give you confidence to say, hey. I'd let me, give me some a few minutes to think about that or let me call you tomorrow or, you know, that that's where our confidence comes from when we realize this is the strength that I have, and it's gonna look different from that extroverted friend over there. But it's it's something that I have, and I I think that's that's a big way that I know I've gained confidence.

Sarah Manley [00:10:43]:
Possibly. I spoke to a sales director recently. He's been operating in the space for 30 or more years, and he he had a beautiful way of articulating this. He said, Sarah, I often say, I can give you an answer right now, but I can give you a better one tomorrow. And I really like that. I really like that.

David Hall [00:11:03]:
Yeah. I love that. That is great. I'm gonna use that too. Is there another strength you feel like you have because you're an introvert?

Sarah Manley [00:11:12]:
Yeah. I think, you know, for me, it really comes into that deep listening, the intuitive piece of I'm good at seeing what's not being said in people. Because I have a distance sometimes from a conversation that can be happening and buzzing around and the tennis match that's going on in the meeting room, and I'll be there taking it all in, observing it, and then connecting the dots But sometimes if people aren't paying such deep attention goes a bit missing. So I I I love that sometimes. And I think maybe yourself, some of the listeners will identify with that moment where you just go, ah, now I see. Or also like, ping, here is this really curious idea. I'm not even really sure it came from, but it's this kind of 10 dimensional puzzle that's been building in your brain from taking it all in. Then the trick is how you articulate it to people.

Sarah Manley [00:12:07]:
But, that's that's really a fun skill to have.

David Hall [00:12:11]:
Yeah. Ten dimensional puzzle. That's yeah. And and you probably you're probably like me. You probably like the puzzle. Right?

Sarah Manley [00:12:17]:
Love it. Love it. Love it. Love it. I I often say it's I think of it the magpie. So, you know, the magpie that collects all these shiny things around.

David Hall [00:12:25]:
So I

Sarah Manley [00:12:25]:
love all these little tidbits of information and whatever, put them together, and then, oh, what's this made? That's quite interesting. So, yeah. Have a lot of fun doing that.

David Hall [00:12:36]:
Yeah. And then like you said, we have to figure out then how to share what's so clear in our heads with others, of course.

Sarah Manley [00:12:43]:
Yeah. Yeah. Not always easy, but, I I find personally, and I find a lot of the introverts that I coach think best with a pen in their hand. It's not universal. But there's something really special that I think happens when our our when our brain is allowed to unravel the plate of spaghetti that's wound around our brain and let it flow through a pen on the page and having that time and space just to free write. So don't worry what's coming out or if it's a beautiful paragraph or story. It doesn't matter. But just letting it literally flow out of your brain through the line of spaghetti and down onto the page through your pen is a really nice way to do it to get started.

Sarah Manley [00:13:31]:
Take the pressure off yourself. You don't need to sound like some kind of, you know, presidential speech that's perfect and, you know, there's rally and cry. Just just take it easy on yourself. I think often, a lot of introverts put mega pressure on themselves and say things like, but, you know, it never sounds good out loud as it does in my head. Well, of course not. Because you're thinking in 10 d, and you can only speak in 1 d. So of course not. Give yourself a break.

Sarah Manley [00:14:01]:
Just get started. And, you know, the thing is, the person who's listening has no idea how complicated it was. They're gonna pick up what's relevant and interesting to them. So don't don't don't have so much pressure. Just get started and and see it. It's like any muscle. The more you practice it, the easier it gets.

David Hall [00:14:21]:
Yeah. Yeah. We definitely need to give some thought ahead of time, you know, to things before that meeting or presentation. I I, I do have a pen in my hand most of the time in a notebook close by. I can map out my ideas a little bit better. So

Sarah Manley [00:14:38]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Me too.

David Hall [00:14:41]:
So we definitely talk about strengths of introverts on this show. We also do a little myth busting. Is there a myth or two you wanna bust about introverts?

Sarah Manley [00:14:49]:
Yeah. You know, the number one thing that comes up time and time again, and I'm sure, you know, I know you've discussed it before, but it's a mega one, is because you're quiet, you have nothing to say. And therefore, you must be disengaged. You must be shy. You must be stubborn, uninterested, aloof, slow, all these sorts of things. Just because you are quieter than the perceived norm, hate that word, but perceived norm, you must be all these things. And we stick all these labels on quieter people, And it's grossly untrue. It's grossly untrue.

Sarah Manley [00:15:28]:
As we were just referring to, you know, many many introverts like to think before they speak. And that pause, that hesitation, that reflection, that request for more time is then perceived as less than. Because let's be honest, the world we live in seems to go faster and faster. And I find myself sometimes feeling like the old great grandmother at the age of 43. Say, oh, the world goes very fast. But it genuinely does. It genuinely does. And yeah.

Sarah Manley [00:16:02]:
Indeed. Just by asking for that pause, we are somehow, like, less than and not able to keep up. But, again, for me, it's about that confidence and courage to say, but this is what I need to be at my best. This is what I need. And, actually, half the population need that. So I'm a big advocate as well for a kind of, role modeling behavior. It's like a domino effector. 1 person starts giving permission.

Sarah Manley [00:16:36]:
Let's call it that way. Giving permission to ask for more time. Giving permission to use the silence as a way of communicating a strength. And my one person, 2 people, 3 people, a whole podcast audience of people, everything, you know, suddenly it becomes a new norm to behave in that way instead of a weakness. So this is a really important that's why I say, whilst you probably discussed this many, many times, for me, it's the most critical, critical one.

David Hall [00:17:05]:
Yeah. And, I'll say we have a lot to say because we're always thinking, but we just need to put our thoughts together. And, you know, I do a weekly podcast. I have a lot to say. I I enjoy public speaking. I have a lot to say, but we're not sharing everything. So I think that's kinda where the myth is born is because we're letting the ideas roll around in our heads, and we're sharing what is most important and not bashing extroverts. But since they think out loud most of the time, you're hearing from them more.

David Hall [00:17:38]:
So you think they have more to say, but it's it may not be true.

Sarah Manley [00:17:43]:
Yeah. No. It's highly true, and it's not that one rep is right or wrong, better or worse. And I'm I'm acutely aware and careful. I I write about this in the introduction to the book about extroverts, introverts. It's not pitching them against each other. It's, you know, the the beauty is in the differences. The the real special source, if you like, is when you put differences together in a harmonious way with a heap of self awareness, mutual understanding and trust.

Sarah Manley [00:18:14]:
That's where the really cool stuff happens. So, yes, definitely not about who's better than who met them. But it's about learning from each other as well. You know, if I'm just sitting in a meeting room full of introverts, and we're all sitting there and reflecting, that could take a very long time. You need that mix of the people who are talking, talking, talking, and then it fires some ideas in my brains, and then here we go. You need a mix.

David Hall [00:18:39]:
Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. We need each other. We have different gifts, and it we need more understanding. That's for sure.

Sarah Manley [00:18:46]:
Yeah. Yeah. 100% agree.

David Hall [00:18:49]:
So you were telling us about becoming a coach. What was the how did you decide, yeah, I wanna be a coach, and what's the benefits of working with a coach?

Sarah Manley [00:18:57]:
Yeah. So I've always been a leader who has a coaching style. It's very natural for me when I was leading teams that I would ask a lot more than I would tell. And then as I was coming towards the end of my 20 year stint in the corporate world, I'd actually already started retraining as a coach on the side. It's just something I was always deeply, deeply interested in and want to further my experience in education in that space, as is very typical of me. There's always something new to learn. Love learning. And then when the redundancy came, I was like, well, interesting how this path can meander and weave.

Sarah Manley [00:19:39]:
So, yeah, I took on the opportunity to evolve from my coach training with some clients that were doing pro bono with me or charity donation with me, just try and see. Could this become a business? Could this become a thing? And, honestly, I was very humbled by the feedback that I got from people. And to to come to your question as well about what are the the benefits, you know, the things people were saying to me, but I think it's universal of of many coaches, is is twofold. 1 is it just gives people space. It gives people space in our hectic, hectic lives to think without being interrupted, without somebody waiting to give you an answer, without somebody judging you. And that is quite unique. That's quite unusual. You know, we have friends and family who we might confide in or talk to or ask crew advice.

Sarah Manley [00:20:36]:
But very often, people are waiting for their turn to talk, don't give you all the space and quiet that you need, especially as a deep reflective introvert. You probably need a lot more of that than you get. Other people are trying to solve our problems for us. That happens to me. I tell you what we should do. No. That's not always very helpful. You need to work it through your yourself in a very deep, deep way.

Sarah Manley [00:21:02]:
And, you know, I think the the other part is really around having that, thinking partner to reframe things. We forget sometimes that we look at the world with a very specific set of lenses based on all of our experiences. The good things, the not so good things that have happened to us through life. The things we've been told. The things we start to believe about ourselves give us a very specific lens. So you and I could have exactly the same experience, but we might interpret it completely differently because of our history. So in the coaching space, we can look at how is that belief or how is that assumption helping you or not helping you? And how can we work to reframe some of your assumptions, self beliefs, experiences to help you in a more positive way to move forward towards your goals. And very often, you know, when we start in a coaching relationship, and we're asking somebody, well, what what do you want to achieve? What's actually important to you? Can take a lot of time to get into that.

Sarah Manley [00:22:11]:
People aren't always very sure. Because we often forget to think about what's really important to me? What do I really want? They're actually quite big questions. So having some time and space to think about those very deeply in a very confidential and trusting spaces, I believe, can be very transformational.

David Hall [00:22:30]:
Absolutely. And, of course, you recently released your book, which I I shared with you. I think it's such a great book, you know, filled with introverted strategies, you know, how to do different things, and we'll talk about those. So the name of the book is Quiet Catalyst, the introvert's guide to thriving in your career. So tell us a little bit more about that.

Sarah Manley [00:22:52]:
Yeah. So I guess 2 2 big things to say about the book. 1 is it was designed to be a really short practical guide that you could read in a weekend as a bit of a follow-up to Susan Cain's book. So, Susan, if you listen to this podcast, I hope you like it. You never know. David, you never know. But, genuinely, you know, when I got to the end of her book, I was like, oh my gosh. Thank you for the permission to be me.

Sarah Manley [00:23:21]:
I get it. I'm gonna rock this. But then the next bit is I had to figure out what to do with all of that new introvert knowledge in my corporate life. So that's what I intended to write of. With this knowledge, what's the practical guide to help you in the corporate space? But to do it in a way that wasn't so heavy, it was very practical, full of exercises, kind of a self coaching style of book. And then the other thing maybe to share about the book is, which a lot of people were surprised about. You know, it's not only focusing on here's the things that introverts aren't good at and here's how to do them. Networking maybe.

Sarah Manley [00:24:03]:
Lot of people don't like public speaking contrary to to to your experience. It's not just about how to get good at things you don't like doing, but it's really based on how to start with your strengths. How do you build them from your values, from your strengths to get really solid and secure about how you want to do things? So we work to rebuild people's confidence that often, you know, let's be honest, gets really knocked as an introvert in the corporate world. You get told so often you need to be more visible, you need to be louder, you need to be bolder, all these things. You have a lot of scars from those experiences. So work hard. Let's rebuild some self belief. Let's rebuild confidence.

Sarah Manley [00:24:44]:
And then we also talk about my big obsession, which is energy management. That was the big breakthrough for me in my career when I figured out how to manage my energy and not be all give, give, give, run, run, run, perform, perform, perform, but how to proactively manage my energy. So there's a good there's a good dose of that in there as well, which I hope really helps people and and can be an moment for others as well.

David Hall [00:25:11]:
Yeah. Let's talk about that. So what was that big because I I had something similar. You know? What what did you learn about your energy and what you needed? Yeah.

Sarah Manley [00:25:20]:
So I learned to be more caring to myself in terms of energy. I'll explain what that means. I used to give everything, and then it got to the end of the working day or the weekend, and I would crash and try and recover, ready to go again on Monday or the next day. And then, again, through this book and coaching those experiences, like, why am I doing this? This isn't okay. Like, giving all my energy to work in this busy, busy office environment. I'm being so drained by all

David Hall [00:25:55]:
the interactions all

Sarah Manley [00:25:55]:
the time and my brain working in a 1000000 miles an hour. But I don't have any energy for me, the things I want to do. My friends, my family, like, that's not okay. So what I learned to start doing was proactively planning my energy before something was gonna happen, during and after, and not just leaving it all out on the pitch and hoping for the best and recovering later. So in the beginning, I used to do it in a very, very structured way, and now I do it a bit more intuitively. But in the beginning, when I was in a structured way, I would think, okay. Next, next Wednesday, I have to go to a conference. 300 people presenting or not presenting, whichever.

Sarah Manley [00:26:42]:
Okay. How do I want to show up? So is it okay that I sit in the back a bit exhausted and, like, don't really wanna engage with anybody? Is that okay? Or do I wanna arrive? I wanna do a bit of networking. I wanna do a great presentation, etcetera. So you you have a choice. So how do I wanna show up? And why is that important for me? And then I would plan ahead. Okay. So the week before, what do I need to do to make sure I'm already building my energy for that? The day before, the morning of, all these sorts of things. Just get, you know, get intentional about it.

Sarah Manley [00:27:19]:
For example, if I was gonna go and present at that conference the morning before, don't give me more meetings to do. Don't be fitting in last minute phone calls or Zoom meetings before. But what did help me was to have a buddy. So I would make sure I had some kind of buddy. Sometimes they didn't know they were my buddy. Like, I was like my wingman. I would just, you know, let's go together. Because sometimes just warming up my voice with them, laughing a bit or so on, would just take away that social anxiety that can creep in in those events.

Sarah Manley [00:27:55]:
And I would feel like literally warmed up like an athlete, I guess, ready to go into the and and and perform in that conference in that in that event. But it's also about giving yourself permission sometimes during those events to take time out. And I'm quite quite quite grateful now to the conversations that go on about different personalities or even neurodiversity needing different things. So it makes it more okay now to say, I'm stepping out for 10 minutes. I need a bit of reflection time. I need a bit of distance from all of this big lights, big noise, big chatter. Just go and do it. And then earlier in my career, I didn't have the confidence.

Sarah Manley [00:28:39]:
Well, first of all, I didn't know I needed it, and then I didn't have the confidence to ask for it. But it goes back to that role modeling thing again. You know, as a more senior director, when I was doing those sorts of things, I would have people come back and say to me, Sarah, thanks for doing that and saying that because I feel the same. And now you've done it, I can do it as well.

David Hall [00:29:00]:
Yeah. It's it's crazy. So you're an event like that. And sometimes just to walk outside by yourself could be amazing. But, you know, I I know that earlier in my career, I definitely felt like, oh, well, you're not supposed to be alone. You know? You're not supposed to just take a walk outside by yourself. You're supposed to be, you know, networking all the time. But, I mean, it just could make all the difference in the world and just know what know what that could do for you and, you know, don't don't be ashamed of, you know, doing what you need to do for yourself.

Sarah Manley [00:29:34]:
100%. A 100%. I think it goes to goes back to be careful who you're benchmarking yourself against. Sometimes we have this ideal in mind of who we should be most like, and we benchmark ourselves against people who are good at everything. And actually, that person doesn't exist. We benchmark ourselves against the ultimate network, the ultimate presenter, the ultimate report writer, the ultimate whoever. But that's not one person. That's probably 20 different people.

Sarah Manley [00:30:06]:
And then we expect ourselves to be as good as the best of everybody. That's just a road to feel very miserable and very, very, unable. So, no, I think learning what you need, learning to be okay with that, which is sometimes not easy. You know, I think it's helpful to talk about it. Podcast like this massively help with that. I'm I'm absolutely sure. Sometimes finding a mentor or role model, somebody who's been there, done that, and can be like, yeah. I know.

Sarah Manley [00:30:33]:
I know. I know. And just going a bit easy on yourself. You know? We're so focused on what we're not good at, what we can't do. It goes back to what we said before about the superpowers. I mean, that stuff blows this out of the water. Right? That's the really cool stuff, I think. I'm biased, of course.

David Hall [00:30:50]:
Yeah. But that's what your book really gets into. It's like using your superpowers. What, you know, what do you need? How can you use your powers? Like, I do look I enjoy giving conference presentations, but I didn't always. Definitely used to strike terror in me, and, you know, I probably wasn't as good, but I learned that I need to prepare way ahead of time. And by preparing and really letting ideas roll around in my head and giving it some deep thought, you know, then, you know, managing my energy like we're talking about, you know, making sure I I have some space to get ready that day if I need to, you know, planning some time after to recharge. You know, I might not always need it, but planning that time. Like, you know, after this, guess what? I got a hour.

David Hall [00:31:40]:
You know? I I am yeah. I am thoroughly enjoying talking to you, Sarah. But, you know, I may just need to decompress afterward. You know? And just knowing that that's okay and that's how I work best. And, also, like you're saying, share being able to share with other people. This is how I work best. You know?

Sarah Manley [00:31:59]:
So much time for everything you just said. Tea is my savior. When I was in the the corporate world, and I still do it now, you know, sometimes you don't have an hour's break, but it's always time to make a cup of tea. Maybe it's coffee in the states. I'm not sure, but I was famous for my tea making. And somebody said to me once, actually quite a senior person said, I've noticed like, this is your ritual. And I hadn't really observed it in myself. And it was totally true.

Sarah Manley [00:32:26]:
There'd been a big meeting or something like that. I'd always head for the head for the kettle head for the kettle and just take a minute, take a pause, make the tea. I didn't even want a cup of tea, but it was just that 2 minute of calm, ritual. Stuff like that really helps.

David Hall [00:32:42]:
So as we're talking about strengths, how do you help people, you know, other introverts you're coaching find their strengths and become more self aware?

Sarah Manley [00:32:53]:
Yeah. Yeah. You know, the first thing that I often start with is figuring out for that person what's really important to them and how do they how do they judge in themselves what's important. And the reason I start with that sometimes is we're not very good at identifying strengths in ourselves because we assume that what we can do naturally is just very normal, and everybody can do that. Right? And then, no, that's not the case, actually. What you can do is, let's say, analysis, strategic thinking, connecting the dots, empathy, whatever it might be, is very special and doesn't come naturally to everybody. And a lot of people get quite a shock about that because, again, they've been benchmarking themselves versus other people who are good at the more obvious outward stuff and not the more inward focused stuff or the quieter stuff. So this is why I start with him.

Sarah Manley [00:33:56]:
What do you believe is important, actually? What do you believe are important traits in people? Valuable traits. It's quite an interesting way to go about it. So then we can draw out, okay, so what is it about you that mirrors those traits? And it's quite a voyage of discovery, let's say. Because with introverts, you know, we're not we're not all one thing. Right? You know, it's not one label, one type of person. Sometimes I will flex how we do that. So some people really like to have a tool. You know.

Sarah Manley [00:34:32]:
I like to answer a set of questions and it spits out at the end what are my strengths, and that can be a great starting point, you know, if it's very structured way of doing it. With introverts who are more intuitive, let's say, and think with their gut more than they think with their brain. We'll do more reflective exercises to look at, you know, where were some of the peak moments in your career. So what's gone well so far? What were you doing? Who was around you? What could you see? What could you smell? What was it about you and your strengths that were resulting in that peak moment? So there are different ways for different people, and that's not to say I don't do both with some people, of course, because sometimes it's just about collecting data. The other thing I often ask people to do is to ask other people. You know, we get very nervous sometimes about asking for feedback from other people. Because often that feedback is less than kind, let's say. And often feedback that somebody gives to another person is more about themselves.

Sarah Manley [00:35:46]:
So I think you need to get better at expressing yourself more succinctly. Why? Well, it's because they're good at it, and they think you should be as good as they are. Oh, stupid rubbish. So when I ask people to get feedback from others, we do it in a very controlled way, because feedback should be there to build you up, not knock you down. So, you know, I always say, if you're asking people, ask 5 people you really trust, not just because you're curious what they might think about you. No. 5 people you really trust. I wanna know 2 things they think you're amazing at.

Sarah Manley [00:36:20]:
2 things I think you're amazing at, and one piece of advice. That's it. Simple as that. And, you know, getting that kind of feedback really helps to build people up again, identifies the strengths, maybe gives a couple of pointers about how to use them even more. But, yeah, it's it's it's, you know, it's a really tough one. It's a really tough one because as adults, we don't think about it very often. Like, what are we really good at?

David Hall [00:36:44]:
And I I think I I what what you were saying, we do have to be careful about who we're getting feedback from. You know? Do they have our best interest? Are they just trying to make us into a version of themselves? You know? And I I I really don't value feedback from someone that doesn't understand that we all have different strengths. You know? Someone needs to understand that. Otherwise, you know, if their feedback is just trying to fix me, that's probably not gonna go well.

Sarah Manley [00:37:14]:
No. No. No. No. No. And, you know, I I've had a lot of lazy feedback in the past for people. And this is why I say with people I work with, be really careful about who you ask because, yes, they might be senior. They might be experienced.

Sarah Manley [00:37:30]:
They might be an important stakeholder, but maybe they haven't really got the time to do it. You know? And they're quickly trying to give some written feedback. It's 7 PM on a Friday. They've kind of missed the deadline. They're quickly hammering it in. It's maybe not the quality feedback that you're after because you will remember that feedback forever. They're not gonna think about it ever again. So keep that in mind.

Sarah Manley [00:37:53]:
The balance is is not balanced. Be really careful who you choose and how you explain to them how you're gonna use it.

David Hall [00:38:01]:
Yeah. So back to your book, you you cover so many different areas, you know, the things that happen in the workplace that introverts may struggle with because they don't understand their introversion. And definitely a big one is leadership. You know? So how can what what is a great leader? And do the approaches with leadership look different between introverts and extroverts?

Sarah Manley [00:38:27]:
Yeah. Really nice one. Really nice one. I think what makes a great leader is context specific. Right? So as I said, when I was a leader, I had a very natural coaching style, and often that very people centric, human centered leadership can work super well when you've got really complex problems to solve, when you really need to engage and motivate people, when you need to strategically shift the needle in a business and you need to bring people along with you on the journey, that coaching style works super, super well. And often, I find introverts particularly good at that because we're good at forming deep one on one relationships with people. You know, we will get to know people on quite a deep level, historically, conversely. The definition of strong leadership has been much more that command and control, approach.

Sarah Manley [00:39:34]:
And that can also still be very useful today. I mean, you know, the building is burning down. You don't want me coaching people on how to put it out. You need someone who's gonna say, right. You do this. You do this. You do it. So there's a place for it, but I think the place for that command and control side of leadership gets less and less and less.

Sarah Manley [00:39:52]:
So when we think about the strengths of introverts and extroverts, you could say that the strengths of introverts really lend themselves more to that human centric coaching style, but that's not again to dismiss that extroverts can absolutely do that. But your growth areas will be different. So extrovert's growth area on that style of leadership might be about slowing down, being more reflective, being more patient, taking a more calm stance, taking time to make decisions. The introvert, on the other hand, their growth space might be more in, how am I gonna articulate something succinctly enough with enough energy that really motivates people beyond me creating this warm trusting environment? The other thing I think is important here because I often hear introverts saying, you know, don't like to share a lot of myself at work. And this is a bit of a watch out for me. And everybody is different. So it's not like you have to do this and you must not do that. But I think it's about figuring out your authentic way to do it because so often in leadership, it's about trust.

Sarah Manley [00:41:00]:
You need to trust people and other people need to trust you. And to do that, you do need to share something of yourself. A nice phrase that somebody once used with me was, you need to show a bit of ankle. And I quite like that because it doesn't mean you need to show your entire life story and all the things that happened to you and this and this and this. I mean, if you want to, that's okay, but you don't have to. It's just sometimes showing a little bit of who you really are beyond the work, Sarah, or the corporate Sarah. What do you like? What do you hate? What makes your blood boil? What are your red lines? These sorts of things just help people to get to know you. What makes you laugh? What makes you cry? Showing a bit of ankle in that way really helps.

Sarah Manley [00:41:47]:
So definitely with people that I come across saying, but, you know, I'm not here to make friends at work. Okay. No. You don't have to make your best best friends ever in the world and, you know, go to each other's weddings. That's okay. But show a bit of ankle and create that trust. That's so important for any leader.

David Hall [00:42:03]:
Yeah. And I think naturally, we're more private. You know? We we don't typically share, and that's something I've had to learn too is is share some, like you said. I I like that show up in a vehicle. That's great. But introverts can be amazing leaders. It's just the approach might look different, but we're gonna bring our our gifts and strengths into it. And we can be wildly successful, but our extroverted colleague might succeed in a different way.

Sarah Manley [00:42:29]:
Yeah. Agree. And, you know, for example, one of the later teams that I was leading, I was often challenged by animating a team meeting. You know, I could build a great agenda. We'd have great discussion. Everybody would be heard, etcetera. But I sometimes struggled a bit with the energy, the animation in a meeting. And I'm not a fan of icebreakers.

Sarah Manley [00:42:55]:
I mean, what introvert is. But there were there were a couple of people in my team who were much more naturally filled with a positive energy that was infectious in other people. I don't have that. It's not in my being, and I'm not good at faking it either. I just feel very awkward. I think it makes everybody else feel very awkward. But then I've just engaged with those people in the team to say, honestly, this is something I struggle with. I really admire how you do it.

Sarah Manley [00:43:21]:
I don't think you realize how special that is. That's your superpower. Can you bring that? Because I can't do it. And I feel the meeting would be richer and better and more have an even better output if you bring that. Oh, yeah. We'd love to. Oh, yeah. Great.

Sarah Manley [00:43:37]:
Fantastic. They benefited. I benefited. The whole team benefited. So, you know, sometimes where you you lack these things as a leader, don't stress. Somebody out there can do that for you, can do it with you. So yeah. You don't have to be this full 3 60 perfect.

Sarah Manley [00:43:53]:
No one exists like that.

David Hall [00:43:55]:
Yeah. No one does. And that's the thing. It's like, we look for opportunities to partner with people that have strengths that we don't have. So, yeah, that's amazing. You made me think of one last question. What do you think about the advice fake it till you make it?

Sarah Manley [00:44:11]:
Ugh. Turns my stomach. That makes my blood boil. That's what makes my blood boil is that. And I tell you for for two reasons. One is it can actually be really unhealthy. Really unhealthy. Every day, if you are performing and wearing a mask or somebody you're not, that is dangerous.

Sarah Manley [00:44:32]:
You know, you are giving so much energy to being something you're not and you're pushing yourself so hard. People can burn out. You know? If you're really in that environment where you feel you have to be that way and you're not getting supported, people will burn out. So please don't do it. Please don't do it. And I think the other thing is, you know, it it diminishes the strengths that we do have. Because so often, we will be growing in things. Let's take an example, like the networking.

Sarah Manley [00:45:04]:
Right? You know, we theoretically, we can all go and fake it. But, actually, just by turning up and giving it a go, you've already grown from where you were. So you're not really faking it. You're just learning and growing. But you're so focused on faking it to benchmark yourself next to somebody else. You've completely overlooked. I showed up today. I actually went in the door of the networking event.

Sarah Manley [00:45:30]:
Kudos to me. You know? So I think it if you just focus on this, I'm faking it to you, making it a nice, you really lose sight of all the brilliant stuff that you are doing and the growth that you are experiencing. We need to celebrate more of that stuff.

David Hall [00:45:43]:
Yeah. Well said. Well said. So this has been a great conversation. I could talk to you all day, Sarah. Is there anything that we didn't talk about that you'd like to add?

Sarah Manley [00:45:53]:
Gosh. I think we went we went around pretty much everything. As you say, we could talk about all day and more. No. You know, I think you did a great job. Thank you for the, again, for the invitation. I've loved it. And, yeah, I really hope the listeners enjoy it too.

David Hall [00:46:07]:
Alright. Where can people find out more about you? Again, I highly recommend your book. Where can they find out about the work you're doing and your book?

Sarah Manley [00:46:14]:
Sure. So people can check out my website, which is the quiet catalyst.com. I'm also pretty active on LinkedIn, so you find that at Sarah Manley, TQC, and then you can find the book on Amazon.

David Hall [00:46:31]:
Sounds great. Thanks again, Sarah.

Sarah Manley [00:46:33]:
Thank you once again.

David Hall [00:46:34]:
Thank you so much for joining me today. I look forward to further connecting with you. Reach out at david @ quietandstrong.com or check out the quietandstrong.com website, which includes blog posts and links to social media channels. Send me topics or guests you would like to see on the show. If you're interested in getting to know yourself better, there's now a free type finder personality assessment on the Quiet and Strong website. This free assessment will give you a brief report, including the 4 letter Myers Briggs code, and you can also have the option of purchasing the full report if you'd like to learn more. I'll add a link to the show notes. So many great things about being an introvert, and we need those to be understood.

David Hall [00:47:15]:
Get to know your introverted strengths and needs and be strong.