Ep 196 - Empathy, Emotional Intelligence & Effective Leadership with guest Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller

Have you ever wondered how empathy and emotional intelligence can transform your leadership style? In this compelling episode of The Quiet And Strong Podcast, host David Hall sits down with the insightful Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller to explore the profound impact of emotional intelligence on effective leadership.

You'll uncover the different types of empathy—emotional and cognitive—and how each plays a vital role in leadership. Melissa shares her personal journey of discovering her introversion and how it has empowered her career and leadership style. The episode also addresses the myths surrounding introverts, emphasizing their unique strengths and needs.

This episode offers valuable insights for anyone looking to enhance their leadership skills through emotional intelligence and empathy. Whether you are an introvert seeking to leverage your strengths or a leader aiming to create a more compassionate and innovative workplace, Melissa's expertise and experiences provide actionable advice and inspiration.

Tune in to understand how empathy can drive productivity, innovation, and profitability in your organization—and be strong.

Episode Link: QuietandStrong.com/196

After losing her career as a professor to brutally unempathic leadership, Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller reinvented herself as an expert in empathy and emotional intelligence and has never looked back. She has over 30 years of leadership experience in profit, non-profit, and academic settings, and a doctorate in Interdisciplinary Leadership and has experience consulting in change management, data analytics, and the psychology of leadership. Add to this decades as an author, coach, and public speaker, and she’s created the perfect blend to guide both current and emerging leaders in navigating these murky waters to increase productivity, innovation, and profit.

Contact Melissa:

Website: EQviaEmpathy.com
Socials: LinkedIn | Instagram | Youtube
Melissa's book (coming soon): The Empathic Leader: How EQ via Empathy Transforms Leadership for Better Profit, Productivity, and Innovation

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Contact the Host of the Quiet and Strong Podcast:

David Hall

Author, Speaker, Educator, Podcaster

quietandstrong.com
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david [at] quietandstrong.com

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Transcript

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:00:00]:
And a lot of people, when they think of empathy, they immediately think of the I feel what you're feeling empathy, but there's a lot more to it than that. So the way my research is leading right now, there is the I feel what you're feeling empathy, which is called affective or emotional empathy. But there's also cognitive empathy, which means that I logically understand what you're feeling. I can I can see what's going on? I might not necessarily feel it or feel all of it or feel it to the degree that you feel it, but I see what's happening. And I think that these 2 combined with self empathy, which is another thing altogether, is really the best way to approach this because we can't always be in feeling with another person for a ton of different reasons. We're human beings. We're all different.

David Hall [00:00:57]:
Hello, and welcome to episode 196 of the Quiet and Strong podcast, especially for introverts. I'm your host, David Hall and the creator of quietandstrong.com. This is a weekly podcast dedicated to understanding the strengths and needs of introverts and strategies for success. Introversion is not something to fix, but to be embraced. Normally, we'll air each episode on a Monday. Be sure to subscribe on your favorite platform, Leave a review or a rating. That would mean a lot to me. Help others find the show.

David Hall [00:01:28]:
Tell a friend about the podcast and help get the word out there that introversion is a beautiful thing. After losing her career as a professor to brutally unempathic leadership, doctor Melissa Robinson Winemiller reinvented herself as expert in empathy and emotional intelligence and has never looked back. She has over 30 years of leadership experience in profit, nonprofit, and academic settings, and a doctorate in interdisciplinary leadership, and has experience in consulting and change management, data analytics, and the psychology of leadership. Add to this decades as an author, coach, and public speaker, and she's created the perfect blend to guide both current and emerging leaders in navigating these murky waters to increase productivity, innovation, and profit. Alright. Well, welcome to the Quiet and Strong podcast, Melissa. Melissa, it's so good to have you on today.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:02:24]:
It's fantastic to be here, David. We kinda had a few misadventures getting here, so I'm really happy to be here.

David Hall [00:02:30]:
Yeah. Absolutely. So we're gonna talk about your work and your upcoming book, but let's just talk a little bit about your journey, you know, and to the work you're doing now.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:02:42]:
That'd be fantastic. I mean, especially because I'm not sure I knew really realized I was an introvert until a little bit later in life. So I it's it's served me very well now that I understand myself a little better.

David Hall [00:02:55]:
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So let's talk about that. So when did you figure out you were an introvert?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:03:03]:
Not until I would say 2, 3 years ago, really. So I I was a musician most of my life. And so that meant being on stage. And somehow I had this built in my head that because I like to be on stage. And I, I liked the performances that I must not be an introvert, but the truth of the matter is that it was the things that introverts do, like being able to focus for long periods of time and practice and, you know, sustained motivation and in working on stuff long, long range type thinking that made me able to do what I was doing. And I don't think I really put together that, you know, being an introvert doesn't necessarily mean that you don't like people or that you don't like being on stage or you don't like performing. So I kind of had to educate myself a little more about it.

David Hall [00:03:58]:
Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. On this show, you know, we talk about the strengths and needs of introverts and we bust this and we're busting one right at the beginning. So you're you've been a performer, and you you've loved it. Right?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:04:12]:
Yeah.

David Hall [00:04:12]:
And it doesn't make you an extrovert. That's that's one of the biggest miss. It's like, I'm definitely not a musician, but I enjoy public speaking, and I I enjoy the performance aspect of it. But in my case, I have to prepare, and I also have to give myself downtime after if I need that. But the way I prepare, I I'm definitely gonna process things ahead of time and think through things, but it's a gift because I do some good preparation, I think. So it's it's a good thing. So how did you put a name on it? How'd you say, yeah, I am an introvert.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:04:51]:
I think it kind of happened during COVID honestly, because I was perfectly fine doing exactly what I was doing. And I had had some stuff happen where I'd had to leave my music career behind before that. So I was kind of in the process of navigating some kind of a different world for me anyway, but it was like, I'm absolutely fine working by myself. I am totally fine being able to have time to think and have time to myself and work and research and do what I need to do. And I I mean, this is a little I don't know if I want to say unprofessional, but it's like, you kept seeing the memes coming up about introverts during COVID and how, you know, everybody else was freaking out and the introverts were fine at home with their cats. I mean, that was kind of the, the joke on the net or whatever. And I'm like, well, but that's actually me. I'm totally fine with with all of this.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:05:44]:
I don't like what's happening necessarily. But as far as being able to be at home and work at my own pace and doing my own research and, you know, being more in my bubble than out of it, I was totally cool with that and still am.

David Hall [00:05:59]:
Yeah. So before that, were you finding that you didn't have enough quiet time to do your work?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:06:04]:
It was always a struggle.

David Hall [00:06:06]:
Okay.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:06:07]:
And I think part of it is because I just couldn't identify how much I needed it. Although I did know that when I came off of heavy performances, I had to have a couple days. And I also have known from the time I was very young that if I get overstimulated, that it's, it's really no good for anybody that I really need that time to be able to reset and re energize. But I don't know that I had made the connection as to why.

David Hall [00:06:34]:
Yeah. And it's, it's interesting because I started my podcast January 2021, you know, a world introvert day, because there was a lot of miss. So definitely some people like yourself from, you know, oh, this is good. There's also you know, there are some myths like it wasn't happy happy days for every introvert. You know, there was definitely a lot of people that were feeling very isolated from others.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:07:00]:
Yeah.

David Hall [00:07:00]:
You know, because, again, we do like people.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:07:03]:
Yeah. Absolutely. But

David Hall [00:07:05]:
at the same time, what you're saying is it's a need, but also when it's forced upon us, we don't mind as much, you know, having the quiet. So we need it, but also, you know, even if we're not needing it, we're good. We're okay with it if if it if it you know, we spend some time alone. Right?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:07:22]:
Yeah. Well, I knew people at the job that I was in that just almost seemed to go to pieces because they couldn't be in that environment every single day. They needed that that connection and communication and this when they didn't get it. I mean, there was one that kind of devolved into some substance abuse and stuff, which is not what you want either. But I I was like, I don't feel that at all. I'm I'm totally okay either way. And in fact, I'd prefer it this way.

David Hall [00:07:54]:
Yeah. Definitely. Learn. Yeah. We gotta find out what works for us. And

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:07:59]:
Yeah.

David Hall [00:08:00]:
And, so, you know, you're you're figuring out because of the pandemic, like, you know, I'm enjoying this time alone. It's good it's good for me. But what was it? Was there a resource or a book or anything that caused you to put your finger on I'm an introvert?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:08:15]:
I don't know that there was a specific thing. It's more like I just went to the net and started researching and started finding articles and trying to figure out, you know, well, what do people say about this? Because this is, this is something that a lot of people talk about and I've heard people talk about and I kind of have this vague idea of what I think it is, but what is it? You know, I don't think it's, I don't think it's what I thought it was. So what are the people that that feel that they they qualify into this category saying? What are they, what are they feeling about this? What are they talking about? How do they interact? How do they, you know, interact with other people and interact in situations and and kind of view the world? I think that was the big shock for me is it isn't just a state of being. It's also kinda how you view the world. And and that was a surprise to me as well.

David Hall [00:09:07]:
Yeah. And what would you say is the strength that you have because you're an introvert?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:09:13]:
I think that ability to just hyper focus and, and really prepare and, and just pull the details out to the nth degree. Because I think that served me really well as a musician. And and I would sometimes, you know, get kind of made fun of because I was always that person that was gonna over prepare. I'm going to be practicing for months in advance. But I think it really served me well in what I was doing because it allowed me to go on stage and be comfortable with what I was doing and not feel like I was gonna have to pull it out of the air. And then later through one doctor and then another, it's that same kind of preparation and the ability to focus. And this is I wanna be able to dig in on these details and I don't need people around me to do it. I can sink in and do it all by myself.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:10:00]:
And in fact, I would probably rather.

David Hall [00:10:02]:
Yeah. Yeah. That is that is a great and it's it's a gift because, you know, you prepare well and then you perform well. You know?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:10:09]:
Yep. And then the next performance builds on that and the next performance builds on that. It all goes together.

David Hall [00:10:17]:
Yeah. So like I said, we bust myths. We already started busting 1. You know, you were talking about that, you know, you love to perform. I I enjoy performing and and doing public speeches or even podcasting. And it's funny. Like, people think, like, you thought it's like, oh, well, they can't be a actor or a comedian or any you name another kind of performer. But the truth is that I think a lot of comedians are actually introverts because, you know, they have that observation, like, the funny things that are going on around them, you know.

David Hall [00:10:51]:
And so it's it's just funny the myths that go on, but, you know, it's deep thought, you know, it's preparing. You know, an actor might really prepare ahead of time before their role, but they might really enjoy it. So is there another any other miss you want to bust about introversion?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:11:07]:
You know, just this whole idea that introverts just don't want to be around people. It's, it's kind of like you said, it's not that I don't want to be around people. It's just that I kind of have a timer. And then at that point I need to be able to take care of myself. But it isn't that I don't want to at all. It's just that I have an on and off switch, I guess. You know?

David Hall [00:11:36]:
Yeah. I recently looked that up. Like, alright, how many what's the percentage that that wants no human contact? And it was just a little Google search, but it was less than 1%, you know? So we all need people. It's just, you know, introverts might want people in different amounts, different doses, different settings. You know, some people we really want to be around, you know, it just, it just depends.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:11:59]:
Yeah. And I find, at least for me, it has a lot to do with my comfort level. Is it somebody I'm comfortable being around or is it somebody that's going to, you know, make, make me feel energetically? Like I've just, I like, I like, I need to sit down and have a cup of cocoa or something, just get out of the room, you know?

David Hall [00:12:19]:
So in addition to be a musician, tell us a little bit more about your work life and how it's led to the book that you're that's that's coming out soon.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:12:30]:
So the way this actually happened, I was a musician for a long time and I was a performing musician. And then I went on to teach at the university and I was very happy to be there. That's where I wanted to be. But within my 1st semester of being there, I was actually assaulted by one of my colleagues and I had moved everything to be able to go and do this. I'd gotten a job at a university kind of far away from everybody. And long story short, it didn't seem to matter who I talked to or what I tried to do to get my point across. Nobody wanted to hear what I was saying. And the system was really broken besides it was, it was a mess.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:13:13]:
When I went to the guy that was our boss, I was told that as a junior female faculty member, that if I was stirring up trouble that quickly, I was never gonna get tenure. And when I went to the person that was his boss, I was told that if I didn't like it, I could just leave. And even as I went out into the university to HR and to the union and to the different departments, it's like they just couldn't make the connection to hear what I was saying. And long story short, I eventually had to leave the business, which was really hard for me because I had never wanted to be anything but a musician. That's what I was. And when you you get your sense of self wrapped up into these things, it's really hard to just step away. You just it's it's more than that. So once I was out, I had to figure out what I was gonna do next.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:14:00]:
And of course, I had no idea because because I knew I was gonna be a musician from the time I was in middle school. But the more I got to thinking about this, the more I kept trying to figure out why there was this disconnect. What was it that was in the way? How had this gotten so dysfunctional that just nobody really seemed to care or notice what was going on with another human being? And that's what brought me around to this idea of empathy and and emotional intelligence and why there just seems to be a lack of it in some businesses and especially in some leaders. And the more I picked up on this and the more I researched it, the more I decided I really wanted to throw myself into it. So I ended up with, with an MBA and then decided to get a doctorate in interdisciplinary leadership so that I could just dig in and study. I mean, that's the thing with a doctorate is that it gives you the time and the resources because you have all the different databases. You have all the different books to get into through the library, and you can dig in and really figure it out. And so that's where I'm at now.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:15:01]:
I'm kind of working into the thesis stage and the dissertation, and this is what I want to do because this is a problem and people are getting hurt because of it. And it's something that is a very human emotion. Statistically, most people have empathy 95 to 98%. So it's not a matter of teaching empathy. It's a matter of teaching people how to practice it and then to use that to tap into emotional intelligence. And I just believe it's that important that I'm willing to put that much on the line for it.

David Hall [00:15:34]:
Yeah. So tell us about your, your upcoming book.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:15:38]:
Yeah. So it's actually called the Empathic Leader, How EQVIA Empathy Transforms Leadership for Better Profit, Productivity and Innovation. And the whole point is I kind of lay out how I work with leaders. And I I single out leaders in particular because they can do the most good, but they can also unintentionally do a lot of harm. So that's why that's where I begin with that. But within this book cause I also also have a master's in of science and data statistics. And so I'm like, this is the data. This is what it says.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:16:15]:
These are the things that are saying, yes, you can increase profit. You can increase innovation. Your bottom line is only gonna do better. Your people, as they do better, you're going to do better. So why are we not looking at this? Why are we not taking this seriously and really training our leaders how to be these empathic leaders so they can do better for everybody?

David Hall [00:16:36]:
Yeah. So for someone that doesn't know, tell us what EQ is.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:16:41]:
Oh, emotional intelligence. So like how IQ is, you know, brain intelligence, EQ is emotional intelligence.

David Hall [00:16:49]:
Okay. And what does that mean?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:16:51]:
So emotional intelligence, it was originally coined in 1989 in an article, but what it is is it's the set of skills that people use to relate interpersonally, and they're called soft skills. I'm I'm not sure I love that because really they can be anything but. But the way I like to think of it is it's kind of like a huge tool bag. So in this bag, you're gonna have communication. You're gonna have motivation. You're gonna have interpersonal relations, and you're gonna have hammers and saws and chisels and every tool that you need in this thing. It's a big tool bag. Well, what empathy does by being the first thing that you tap into is it allows you to understand other people so that number 1, you know to reach into this tool bag.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:17:36]:
And number 2, you know to pull out a chisel and not a band saw. So that's how those 2 interrelate. Because for a long time, people have thought that empathy was one of these emotional intelligence skills, but I really think it has to come first. And this is a little different. It's not the way we've done emotional intelligence before.

David Hall [00:17:56]:
K. Well, let's, let's talk about what is empathy because probably people have different ideas about that. So how are you defining empathy in in this context? Yeah,

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:18:08]:
that's that's a tricky one because like we were talking about, there's actually 43 different kinds of empathy and they fall into 8 broad categories. And a lot of people, when they think of empathy, they immediately think of the I feel what you're feeling empathy, but there's a lot more to it than that. So the way my research is leading right now, there is the I feel what you're feeling empathy, which is called affective or emotional empathy. But there's also cognitive empathy, which means that I logically understand what you're feeling. I can I can see what's going on? I might not necessarily feel it or feel all of it or feel it to the degree that you feel it, but I see what's happening. And I think that these 2 combined with self empathy, which is another thing altogether, is really the best way to approach this, because we can't always be in feeling with another person for a ton of different reasons. We're human beings. We're all different.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:19:05]:
So sometimes you have to start by approaching it with your mind. You have to say, okay, I understand what's going on. And that had to be really hard. You know, if you approach it with all feeling, then sometimes you can't use your brain well to be able to figure out how to suss out the combination. And with self empathy for a lot of people, if they've never been able to give themselves empathy, if they've never been able to get away from some of the shame and the judgment that we put on ourselves, they don't know how to begin to give other people empathy. So that's why I really think these three things need to go together, which is a little different again.

David Hall [00:19:42]:
Yeah. How are how do we give ourselves empathy?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:19:46]:
That's that's a great question. So the thing is, is if you are showing empathy or to somebody else, you've got 3 responses. Generally, either you can lean into it and be in that moment with them in the emotion, but that's going to cause discomfort if we're talking about a negative emotion. So the other two things people tend to do is either to numb themselves out so they don't feel anything. And the prevalence in our society of substance abuse, of other kinds of abuse, of, you know, too many video games, too much TV, too much whatever to stay numb will cause that apathy or people will deflect. They'll, they'll, you know, they want to say something so that they no longer feel discomfort. That's where you get the, oh, well, there must have been a reason or the, you know, oh, well, at least they didn't suffer long or whatever. It's not that they're heartless.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:20:43]:
It's that they're feeling so much discomfort because of empathy that they deflect it back. Well, when you're dealing with yourself, you don't necessarily have the option of deflecting because you're in the middle of it, which means that you either have to lean into it and feel it, or people will tend to numb themselves out so they don't have to feel it. So the first question is, am I doing things to numb myself so that I don't have to feel these emotions? And that can show itself in a lot of different ways. You know, people overeat. People oversleep. It can get to be just so much that they, you know, drink themselves into oblivion. Sometimes it's a little bit of numbing. I mean, it's part of the human condition.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:21:26]:
It's what we need to do to survive. But if you're doing it all the time, then you need to say, okay, I'm doing this. Why am I doing this? The second thing is, is you need to start looking at the negative emotions and that's a hard place to be because usually what happens is we start by judging ourselves, which then leads to shame. And that shame is what becomes so uncomfortable that we numb ourselves. So the way I teach people to look at is to ask the 5 whys, which is it's kind of a business thing, but it works really well in this situation. I think. So for instance, you know, for me, I was divorced pretty young and it was, well, I feel terrible about this divorce. I'm judging myself and I feel total shame about it.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:22:10]:
Well, why there's your first why? Because I grew up in a household with 2 parents that even though they didn't really like each other very much, made it clear that they needed to stay together forever and ever and ever. Well, why? Well, because that was the system that they were in. And so now I'm taking on their beliefs and and making it my own shame. Well, why? Well, I don't know why, because I shouldn't be taking their shame onto myself. And now all of a sudden you've gotten to the root cause. And now I can say, look, there is no reason for me to take on this shame. I can show myself empathy and say, yes, this happened. Yeah.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:22:46]:
This was really crummy. And 2 people got hurt, but there's no shame and there's no judgment here. There's just a lot of dark emotion, but it'll pass. So that's where I've found the best success.

David Hall [00:22:58]:
Yeah. So let's talk a little bit more about emotional and cognitive empathy. I shared with you, I definitely approach naturally. Am I going to approach things more logically and, you know, use my imagination to try to put myself in somebody else's shoes? Are these things natural? And do we learn the other or how does that work?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:23:21]:
Effective empathy is natural. They actually like in babies, if one baby starts crying, others around them will start crying, but with that same undertone of fear or hunger or whatever, and it's called emotional contagion. So it's the same as if you walk in a room and someone's just like really excited and happy that you pick up on that very easily. So they think of that as kind of a proto empathy. It's not quite empathy yet, but it's well on its way. So general consensus is that we're kind of born with something, you know, but then as we get older, we can start to do logical cognitive empathy, where we can look at people and say, okay, I've seen this is what's happening. I can, I can understand from the situation, this is what's happening? So now let's plug this in and put it together. Some kinds of empathy, because like we said, there's so many of them.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:24:13]:
I'm like, the one I think about is this empathy for nature and and being in touch with what's going on in the natural world. And I'm not sure some people ever develop that kind of empathy, whereas other people just have it naturally from a very young age. So I think of cognitive empathy kind of like that. It's something that you can build and it is something you can learn. So that even if you don't have emotional empathy, that doesn't mean you don't have empathy.

David Hall [00:24:41]:
Yeah. I guess I've it's for me, it's it's kind of definitely, I have both, but I'm really strong in the cognitive empathy, you know? And so I feel the other, but I don't know if that's something that can be learned. But I come by the cognitive very naturally.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:25:02]:
And I happen to think that's perfectly fine. I mean, it's I'm more along the lines of you use what you have and what you've learned to use. You know, the only bad thing about any kind of empathy, but especially cognitive empathy, is you get to the end of the spectrum where someone has no empathy. And that's where we start talking dark triad. The psychopaths, the sociopaths, narcissists, and Machiavellians. And unfortunately, sometimes they'll learn to mimic this behavior so they could manipulate people. But that's a very small percentage. That's like 2% to 5% of the population.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:25:40]:
So on the other hand, if it's just that you feel you're heavier in one than the other and you're doing the right things with it, then that's the way to go. We're all different human beings. We all approach things differently. So why not go with what works for you?

David Hall [00:25:55]:
Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. That's part of looking at our strengths, you know? Yes. And yeah. So but the small percentage that you've mentioned, I mean, I think they come by that naturally as well.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:26:09]:
They do. A lot of them. I get into this discussion about psychopaths versus sociopaths a lot. And psychopaths are born. Sociopaths are made. So there is a percentage of the population that is just born that way.

David Hall [00:26:23]:
Yeah. So let's pull this back to leadership. What makes a great leader and how is leadership, the demands of leadership changed over the last few years?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:26:34]:
That is such a fantastic question because not only has it changed, but it's changed quickly. So in my opinion, a great leader is one that can actually transform not only their people but themselves into being better than they would have been on their own. That's the leader's place is to be able to create more than just the sum of the parts, which is why I think it's so important to tap into people where they're at and be able to bring them with this leader. This is where the change becomes really difficult because a lot of the change we've been seeing is in the area of technology and leaders don't necessarily know how to do that when people are working remotely, when you've got intergenerational friction, when, you know, the advent of AI, which kind of looks like a person but isn't really gives some kind of personable answers, but is is not. I mean, no empathy there. So leaders have to be able to navigate this and with it happening faster and faster and faster while still hanging on to the human side of things to be able to interact with their people, to be able to work through their people, and to continue to create this transformative leadership.

David Hall [00:27:45]:
Yeah. So how do leaders and how do we become more self aware of, you know, how to do that?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:27:53]:
I think the first thing, like I said, is just to be able to tap into the empathy in yourself and to understand what your own feelings are. I've run into a lot of leaders that get into these leadership positions, not because they have great leadership skills, but because they bring in the biggest contracts, they have the best sales, they have risen through the ranks or whatever. Because of that, a lot of times they know they're not the best leaders. There's a lot of imposter syndrome that can happen with that. But, you know, leaders, they have to be strong and they have to be able to lead and they have to be definitive and all of these these antiquated command and control ideas. So they numb themselves out to what's going on, and they're not able to pull in that humanity. So we're back again to being able to understand self empathy through self reflection, through asking the hard questions, through doing the hard work so that once they're able to relate to themselves and understand that some of these shame and guilt and imposter things that come up are natural, then they can relate to their people. And in a way we're right back to the transformative part because they've been able to transform themselves and now they can transform others.

David Hall [00:29:11]:
All right. So let's say, a leader gets ahold of your book.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:29:16]:
Yeah.

David Hall [00:29:17]:
What would, what would you hope that they are able to accomplish through, you know, reading your book?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:29:23]:
I would really appreciate if, if nothing else, that they would get a handle on this idea of really interacting on the human level of creating this know, like, and trust factor. That you don't have to be out there glad handing everybody. You don't have to be like, woah, here we go. I'm the leader. Let's do this. But you can create interpersonal ties so that everybody knows who you are. You may not know every single face, but as an umbrella, you understand who these masses are and why they're there with you, and then be able to take that and actually lead. There's something called the 30 day washout, and what that is is people will take on these new things.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:30:07]:
They'll get really enthusiastic. They'll be like, I can't wait to apply this. This is something really exciting. But within 30 days, they've gone back to whatever their old habits were. I mean, that's precisely why fad diets don't work because in 30 days, you're probably back to whatever you were doing before. So I would want them to be able to integrate this idea of interhuman relation through empathy and emotional intelligence. And I would want it to be a lifelong practice. And I make that really clear in my book.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:30:35]:
This is not a fantastic leadership in 4 steps kind of thing. It's just not. It's something that you have to practice every single day forever because it's your integrating it in as a habit. I actually spend a little bit of time talking about how you integrate habits for that reason, because I want people to be able to use it. And that means thinking long term and not washing out in 30 days.

David Hall [00:31:00]:
Alright. So definitely tell us more about that. How do we sustain it? How do we not wash out after 30 days?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:31:08]:
It's practice. It's all practice. Practice does not make perfect. Practice makes permanent. So if you integrate it so that you're doing it every single day, even just a little bit, even just a tiny bit, that means that now this is going to become a practice that you do all the time. I've heard statistics anywhere from you can integrate a habit in 21 days, it takes 900 days, whatever. But the truth is is it's the consistency. It's just like practicing an instrument.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:31:39]:
I'm not going to pick up a French horn and be good at it if I only practice it for 30 days. But if I practice it for 10 minutes for every single day for a year, Next thing you know, not only is it going to be integrated as a habit, and I'm probably going to feel weird if I don't do it, but I'm going to make those strides forward day after day after day. And that's how you really can integrate a habit so that it becomes a practice. Just like athletes, you know, they don't practice twice and then go out on the court and hope for the best. This is something they start young and they do often. That's precisely what you have to do.

David Hall [00:32:17]:
Yeah. Do you, do you have any tips on just setting up a system to make sure that you're practicing?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:32:24]:
Absolutely. Find a time of day, put it in your calendar. I don't care if it's only for 10 minutes, start at 5 minutes, if that's what you want, but get it in there so that it's like brushing your teeth in the morning. The alarm goes off, you reach for the toothbrush. It's it's just the reaction you have. It's almost Pavlovian. Do it in the same way. I hear my alarm.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:32:45]:
I need to actually sit and think about some of these negative stuff. I had this really negative interaction yesterday with Tessa and accounting, and it's bringing up these nasty emotions, and I don't understand why. Let me grab my journal and do the 5 whys on that. You don't have to do it all at once. You don't have to dig into every trauma you have all in one session. But by doing it every single day, even if it was just yeah. I got really ticked off in traffic at this guy, and I can't figure out why I can't get this anger to go away, and I'm still dwelling on it. Yeah.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:33:15]:
I felt really ashamed at the way I snapped at my partner last night at dinner. Let's just work the 5 whys. Every single morning at 9:50, I'm spending 10 minutes doing this. Over time, it'll become a habit, and you'll just know I need to spend that 10 minutes today working through whatever.

David Hall [00:33:33]:
So how can this leader then, you know, bring it to the rest of the team, you know, create kind of a culture of empathy? How can they do that?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:33:43]:
Starting with themselves, first of all, because when you're a leader, for lack of a better term, you're always on stage. Someone is always watching. And if people start to see this, they'll start to emulate that culture. But then the next step is to actually be a mentor on it and to teach it yourself. Because as a leader, if you want to create transformative change, you're going to have to be willing to take it to other people. Starting with your middle managers, because these are the people that have to be able to manage up and down. And if I'm being really honest about it, they're the ones that I like working with the best because they really have the biggest spectrum of people to work with, And they're probably the ones that are going to be the top leaders later on so that this just disseminates out. But it has to start somehow at the top, whether it's top in the middle or the top at the top and then display it, Show it because actions are so much louder than words.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:34:42]:
You know? And then someone goes, well, I noticed you were doing this and all of a sudden true story. I was working with somebody on this, and he was going out and he was doing stuff with his people. All he was doing was walking by twice a day and saying, how you doing? It's not like he was engaging in like, you know, hour long lunches or anything. But over time, his people started coming to him because they trusted him and saying, look, we're boots on the ground and we can see where we can actually tweak these procedures, where we can change these systems. So we're going to be more efficient. Innovation got better because the systems were more efficient. Productivity got better. Plus his employee satisfaction scores went up from mid seventies to low nineties within a quarter.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:35:28]:
All of a sudden he's got other directors going, what are you doing? How is this working? How did you make this happen? And he could say, this is all you need to do. And, of course, when productivity or, yeah, productivity and innovation go up, so does profit.

David Hall [00:35:42]:
So in addition to being a great example, are there is it a case where you actually conduct training? Yep. Empathy?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:35:51]:
Absolutely. Yep. Because a lot of people don't understand what it is. And then you can you can say, you know, this is how we're going to do it. Every morning, we've got 10 minutes for our middle managers. I want you to take the time to do the 5 whys to work through this. Every day, I want you to touch your people once. I don't need a huge picnic.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:36:13]:
I just need you to be able to make contact with them every day. Make sure that you're getting out of your office and taking time for this. And then at the end of the week, because the whole purpose of empathy is interpersonal, I I want to be able to break this down with my people and see how this is going because some people will pick it up very quickly. Other people, it takes a little more time, which is when you can say, okay, the affective start isn't working very well. Let's take a look at a little more cognitive empathy. Okay. You're still not quite getting a hold of this. Let's talk about self empathy so that we can be sure that you have a handle on this.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:36:49]:
You know, so it's not just a matter of being aware. It's not just a matter of displaying it. It's also a matter of integrating it into the culture. So now it's habitual for everybody.

David Hall [00:37:00]:
Yeah. And I think you were saying earlier, it's you're it's not that you're teaching somebody empathy, but you're bringing an awareness to them. Correct?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:37:11]:
Yes. Absolutely. You know, because we haven't been taught this. How can you know what you don't know? In a lot of European nations, they have what are called social emotional learning, and they actually teach empathy in the schools. We don't really do that. So you're just like, here, go do empathy. What do I do with that? You know, I I don't really know what it is. I don't really know how to employ it.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:37:37]:
And you're dealing with a lot of different people. I've actually heard since we're myth busting that introverts as a whole don't show a lot of empathy and that they can be cold. And I have actually found that to be completely false because it's not that at all. It's just that they display it differently. And I wouldn't even say that across the board necessarily, but just that we're different people doing different things. So to assume that this is how one group is going to take to it or another group is not, it just doesn't work that way.

David Hall [00:38:07]:
Yeah. I will say that we, you know, we're deep thinkers, so we're in our heads more, and we think before we speak, whereas extroverts are generally thinking out loud in general, and they're sharing a lot more than we're sharing. So we can be misunderstood, but that's another part of all this being self aware. How are we coming across to people? You know? Are we sharing enough sharing the right things? And so it it can be something that you have to learn as an introvert. You know? Not I'm not gonna say every introvert does, but, you know, you need to learn. Okay? I am in my head a lot. Am I am I sharing? Am I showing empathy? Or, you know, is it is it is it visible to people? You know?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:38:54]:
Yes. Or do I need to at least explain that? You know, look, I'm, I'm just, that's not really how I display it, but that doesn't mean that I'm not feeling it or thinking through it or experiencing it somehow. It's just that I experienced it differently than, than the guy next to me that talks through all of it. My husband's like that. He's a talker. He just everything becomes verbal. And I'm the quiet person in the corner is what I'm told. You know? They you're not necessarily gonna know my mind unless I speak it, and I may not speak it.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:39:26]:
So it's up to me to communicate that that's who and what I am.

David Hall [00:39:30]:
Yeah. Did you have to work through that with your husband?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:39:33]:
I work through that with him every day.

David Hall [00:39:35]:
Okay. It's on good. It's ongoing. Alright.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:39:38]:
Yes. It is. We we do. We work we just had our 11th anniversary, so we do we do well with it. And we we're a good combination in a lot of ways, but that doesn't mean that sometimes that we don't need to look a few things out.

David Hall [00:39:53]:
Yeah. So, and again, it's just to what you were saying. We just may need to be aware of how we are coming across to people if we do need to share more than we are, that kind of thing.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:40:06]:
Yeah. Yeah. And that goes for the other side as well. Maybe others need to also be aware and understand their own proclivities and and work with them.

David Hall [00:40:18]:
So Melissa share like kind of a summary, you know, how can being emotionally intelligent and having empathy, how can it transform a workplace?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:40:29]:
The big thing with people that do emotional intelligence well is it helps them to understand and control their own emotions and understand the emotions of others. So by being able to do this, you can actually create the kind of workplace where synergistically everyone is working together instead of leaving people behind, instead of not allowing people to rise to their top talent, instead of just not understanding. I mean, you hear these horror stories about well, I have a friend. She does a lot of speaking on grief. And one of the things that she was talking about is how much is this costing workplaces because they're not understanding when people are grieving. They're not giving them the support that they need, especially if they don't grieve the way other people think they should. Through emotional intelligence, if you can connect to that and understand this grief process, understand that they're processing things as best they can as a human being, Now you've created a synergistic relationship where this person is allowed to rise to whatever their top level is within that microcosm and come out a better human being on the other side as opposed to being kind of stomped down and probably feeling alienated, probably feeling alone. People have this weird idea that, you know, when you come to work, you leave your emotions at the door.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:41:54]:
Well, we're people. It doesn't work that way.

David Hall [00:41:58]:
Yeah. Yeah. We definitely are people, and we take our whole selves everywhere we go. So Yes.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:42:03]:
So why not learn to work with it instead of work against it?

David Hall [00:42:07]:
Yeah. Well, so this has been a wonderful conversation. Is there anything else you wanna add?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:42:12]:
You know, for what it's worth for someone who came to the whole introversion thing a little bit later in life, I really wish I would have figured it out sooner. I think I could have leaned into my strengths a lot more if I woulda had a better handle on why my strengths were what they were and why I did the things that I did. So rather than, you know, just kind of fumbling through and hoping for the best, I hope that other people are getting this information too. Because I kinda feel like I wasted some time not understanding myself as well as I could have.

David Hall [00:42:46]:
Yeah. Then maybe you just help someone right now. You know? And and that's why I do this work is it took me a while to figure out too. You know, definitely, it was a long journey, and now I'm I'm using my strengths. And if it's wonderful, you know?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:43:03]:
Yeah, I agree. I think I would have been a lot healthier a lot sooner if I just would have realized it. So, yeah, I hope so. Whoever's listening to this that needs to hear it. I hope they heard it.

David Hall [00:43:14]:
Yeah. All right. And then where can people find out about the great work you're doing in your upcoming book?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:43:20]:
So I'm most easily found at my website, which is EQVIA empathy. And it's just called that because it's so much harder than saying EQ through the lens of empathy. So EQ via empathy. And there I have a newsletter there where people can sign up to to be updated on the book release with what's going on with that. And my social media handles are there. I'm on Instagram and LinkedIn mostly and and YouTube. And I'm always happy to keep the conversation going because there's a lot of myths out there about empathy and emotional intelligence too. So I'm always happy to talk to people about it.

David Hall [00:43:58]:
Alright. Well, thanks again. This has been a wonderful conversation.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller [00:44:01]:
Thank you, David. This has been fantastic.

David Hall [00:44:03]:
Thank you so much for joining me today. I look forward to further connecting with you. Reach out at david@quietandstrong.com, or check out the quiet and strong dot com website, which includes blog posts and links to social media channels. Send me topics or guests you would like to see on the show. If you're interested in getting to know yourself better, there's now a free type finder personality assessment on the Quiet and Strong website. This free assessment will give you a brief report, including the 4 letter Myers Briggs code, and you can also have the option of purchasing the full report if you'd like to learn more. I'll add a link to the show notes. So many great things about being an introvert, and we need those to be understood.

David Hall [00:44:44]:
Get to know your introverted strengths and needs, and be strong.