Ep 199 - Helping Writers Turn Darkness Into Gold With Guest Joanna Penn

Want to learn how facing your inner shadows can lead to a more authentic and fulfilling life? In this enlightening episode of The Quiet And Strong Podcast, host David Hall is joined by author Joanna Penn to explore the richness that lies within the darker aspects of our personality.

Join us as we navigate Carl Jung's concept of the "shadow" and uncover how these unconscious traits, often repressed by societal norms, can be a goldmine for creativity. Joanna shares her personal journey of embracing her introversion, moving from a high-stress corporate career to becoming a successful and intuitive writer. She discusses using triggers and shadow exploration to enrich both personal and professional life, offering actionable insights.

This episode is packed with wisdom and practical advice that will resonate deeply with introverts aiming to harness their unique strengths. Whether you're a writer, creator, or someone striving for personal mastery, understanding and embracing your shadow can elevate your work and personal life. Be inspired by Joanna Penn’s journey and learn how to turn your own darkness into gold.

Tune in for a captivating discussion that promises not just self-improvement, but a profound appreciation for the introverted experience — and be strong.

Episode Link: QuietandStrong.com/199 (https://quietandstrong.com/199)
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Joanna Penn writes non-fiction for authors and is an award-winning, New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of thrillers, dark fantasy, and memoir as J.F. Penn. She’s also an award-winning podcaster, creative entrepreneur, and international professional speaker. She lives in Bath, England.

Connect with Joanna:
Website: TheCreativePenn.com

Get Joanna's New Book: Writing the Shadow
More from Joanna: Non-fiction books | Fiction Books

Socials: Twitter | Instagram | Facebook | Youtube

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Contact the Host of the Quiet and Strong Podcast:

David Hall

Author, Speaker, Educator, Podcaster

quietandstrong.com
Gobio.link/quietandstrong
david [at] quietandstrong.com

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Transcript

Joanna Penn [00:00:00]:
Yes. So it's based on the work of Carl Jung, psychologist Carl Jung, and I studied psychology way back at a level. So here in the UK, that's age 16 to 18, and that's when I first heard about it, and I'm nearly 50. And so it's basically the unconscious side of the personality that the conscious mind rejects or suppresses. So that's so that introversion is a good example. Why can't I or I should behave like this in public? And that side of me that hates it, I'm going to have to repress because that's not normal. So for me, introversion was in the shadow for a long time. But then it's also things like society might tell us that's wrong, or you can't think that, you can't do that, you're not allowed to be that.

Joanna Penn [00:00:44]:
And, of course, that happens to a lot of different people, might be family or religion or just generally society.

David Hall [00:01:00]:
Hello, and welcome to episode 199 of the Quiet and Strong podcast, especially for introverts. I'm your host, David Hall and the creator of quietandstrong.com. This is a weekly podcast dedicated to understanding the strengths and needs of introverts along with strategies for success. Introversion is not something to fix, but to be embraced. Normally, we'll air each episode on a Monday. Be sure to subscribe on your favorite platform. Leave a review or a rating. That would mean a lot to me and also help others find the show.

David Hall [00:01:30]:
Tell a friend about the podcast and help get the word out there that introversion is a beautiful thing. Joanna Penn writes nonfiction for authors and is an award winning New York Times and USA Today, best selling author of thrillers, dark fantasy, and memoir as J. F. Penn. She's also an award winning podcaster, creative entrepreneur, and international professional speaker. She lives in Bath, England. Alright. Well, welcome to the Quiet and Strong podcast, Jo.

David Hall [00:02:01]:
Jo, it's so great to have you on today.

Joanna Penn [00:02:03]:
Oh, thanks for having me, David. I'm excited to talk to you.

David Hall [00:02:07]:
Yeah. Me too. And I I I told you I've been reading your books and following your podcast for some time, and it it's we're gonna talk about that. Of course, we're gonna talk about your latest book out of 45, so that's amazing.

Joanna Penn [00:02:19]:
That's amazing. Over many years at this point. So Yeah.

David Hall [00:02:23]:
Yeah. But you also are a a fellow introvert, so let's just talk about that for a minute. Tell us about your journey, you know, to becoming an author, a podcaster, a speaker.

Joanna Penn [00:02:34]:
Yes. So like many people, I worked in corporate. I used to implement accounts payable software into different companies across, the UK and Europe, and then I was down in Australia and New Zealand. So I had this corporate job, and I was a consultant. I was highly paid. I was making, you know, 6 figure salary, and that's where you're meant to get to. Right? And I hit that kind of 35 point. And I was like, what am I doing? I was so miserable.

Joanna Penn [00:03:02]:
I got to the point I was crying at work every day. I just couldn't see the point. And I really just questioned what I was doing with my life. And when I thought about what I wanted to do, it was very much I love I've always loved reading. I'm a huge reader. I've always journaled and I love travelling. So I thought if I could put those things together, reading, writing, and travel, then maybe I could turn that into a career. But then what happened was 2,007, so, it was sort of 2,005, 6 when I didn't know what to do with my life.

Joanna Penn [00:03:33]:
2,007 was when the Kindle launched and the iPhone. And I was living in Australia at the time, and what happened was those 2 technological changes opened up the America. So suddenly, someone living in Australia could publish a book, self publish a book, and reach readers in America. And this was huge because it transformed the possibilities for being an author as a career. You were no longer just relying on traditional publishing. And because I had looked at traditional publishing and I've always run my own business, I was a and I was like, I wanna run a business that makes good money. I was not gonna be a poor author. I was gonna do well.

Joanna Penn [00:04:10]:
And so when this happened, I was like, okay, this is great. And also, of course, as an introvert, online business, writing, these are things that are suddenly very happy. And and just last point on this, one of my biggest health issues was migraines. Almost every every second day, really, I was getting migraines. I was take like, popping painkillers, and I was working in a massive open plan office, about 400 people in an office. You can imagine the noise, the stimulation, and this was before you were allowed to wear headphones at work. So, obviously, my pain was connected to the overstimulation of the environment, but that was also before I knew I was an introvert. So I guess that's sort of the where I started.

Joanna Penn [00:04:53]:
I left my job in 2011, and I've been a full time author entrepreneur ever since.

David Hall [00:04:59]:
Yeah. 400 people in the open office. The introverts listening are like, oh, no. That's awful.

Joanna Penn [00:05:09]:
Exactly. But I I feel like I mean, and that was, I guess, around 2005, 2008 ish. And we didn't really know so much, I think, around what introverts or highly sensitive people felt. There wasn't the understanding that I think there is now. So I just thought there was something wrong with me. And in fact, that's why I love your website. I wrote it down. You said on your site, you are not broken.

Joanna Penn [00:05:30]:
But at the time, I felt so broken. I was like, why can't I do this? You know, why am I sobbing in pain in the toilets at work? So, yeah, that that was a it was a difficult time, but, again, difficult times help us turn that into something else if we make take the action to get out of it, and and that's kind of what I did. I should say I now live back in the UK. I'm in Bath in the southwest of England. So even though I was living away, I'm I'm now back home.

David Hall [00:05:57]:
Alright. And you're not the first one to tell that story that you felt like something was wrong with you. It was me too, and so many guests had that same. Now I always say not all introverts have had that experience. Some are just start out life confident, and that's awesome. But there's some of us that really have to come to embrace our introversion, but that's that's why we're that's part of the reason why we're chatting. So just, you know, there is nothing wrong with and what I found for myself was there wasn't anything wrong with me. What was wrong is I didn't understand my introversion.

David Hall [00:06:31]:
That's what was wrong.

Joanna Penn [00:06:33]:
And Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And I I guess I kind of I started training as a professional speaker at the time because I thought that would go well with books. And in fact, it does. It's a very good thing to have with books. And I remember going to a conference and I there was a friend there and I said to her, I just don't know what's wrong with me.

Joanna Penn [00:06:52]:
I can't deal with these people, peopling situations. I'm so tired. I feel so stressed and, like, just it's all too much. It's like my body is vibrating and it I'm just it's too much for me. And she said, well, that's because you're an introvert. And I was like, what? What do you mean? And so it really took someone on the outside who was, like, a counseling type of person to see something in me, which I didn't know the label for. And then I did the Myers Briggs, and I'm INFJ, and then I started reading about it. And then in 2012, Susan Cain's book Quiet came out, and that was that's that was so helpful.

Joanna Penn [00:07:31]:
I guess you've you've read that book too. Right?

David Hall [00:07:34]:
Absolutely. I recommend that book too. And and many people have said that that was instrumental in helping them feel, hey. You know what? It I'm there's there is nothing wrong with me. You know?

Joanna Penn [00:07:44]:
Yeah. Exactly. And that that really liberated me, and then it was almost permission to stop having to I mean, I can extrovert. A lot of people listen and maybe they say this to you. They listen to my podcast and they say, oh, I can't believe you're an introvert. And I'm like, that's because you don't understand what an introvert is.

David Hall [00:08:02]:
Yes. Yes.

Joanna Penn [00:08:04]:
But, you know, 1 on 1 is great, but it's like, suddenly, I discovered all these things about myself that I thought were bad, and then I could start to address how I could turn them into, as, you know, superpowers as you also say. But I think it that all kinda happened at a similar time when I was really questioning the choices I had made that the world thought was successful. You know, my job was successful. I was in that place. You know, we had an investment property and everything looked to be going well, and yet I was miserable because I was living a life that wasn't true to myself. So, yeah, it made a huge difference to me. And I guess we should also say that there are things you learn. So like I say, I can extrovert.

Joanna Penn [00:08:45]:
I can do things in noisy environments and all of that kind of thing, but it's just super, super tiring.

David Hall [00:08:53]:
Well, that's the thing. It's like, yeah, we both love podcasting. Okay? I do need to prepare for it. I do need to manage my energy around it, you know, give myself space on both sides. I also love public speaking. I don't I don't get nervous anymore. I used to. Oh, it was terrible.

David Hall [00:09:10]:
But what I had to learn was my way of preparing is probably different than my extroverted friend, you know, my way of preparing ahead of time. And also, I may probably need a break afterward, you know, and just understanding things like that just made all the difference. And there wasn't anything wrong with me. It just I needed to take a different approach.

Joanna Penn [00:09:32]:
Yeah. Exactly. And so often we measure ourselves against other people, but also I wonder how many other people might be faking it and then go home and fall apart after an event. I mean, even extroverts can have too much people time.

David Hall [00:09:48]:
There there are a lot of people that that's the case for. And I've even had some some people on the show that were talking about something else besides introversion and, you know, talking about it. They they still were struggling with things, and I'm like, you don't have to struggle anymore. Just understand that this is what you need, and it's normal to need to recharge after. You know? It's it's it's it's it's needed to make that as part of your plan. You know? Plan out your energy and that kind of thing.

Joanna Penn [00:10:20]:
Yeah. And also respecting other people like like you. I prepare heavily for my podcast whether I'm the host or the guest. And I always I always love getting questions and I always give questions. And a few months ago, somebody said, oh, we don't do questions. We just ad lib. And I'm like but I have for example, I have a lot of books. There's a lot of topics we could cover.

Joanna Penn [00:10:42]:
There's a and I was like, I'm sorry. I'm really not comfortable with that. And in the past, I would have said, oh, that's fine. I'll just deal with it. And then I would have been anxious and worried and but I pushed it and they did give me at least a topic. They didn't give me questions, but at least I could then review my material on that topic. And so I guess that's another tip for people listening. If that's you and you're you're sort of being encouraged to go in a position like a as a podcast guest with no clue, especially as we're, you know, recording audio and video and you don't know what people are gonna publish afterwards, then just you can push that a bit.

Joanna Penn [00:11:16]:
You can push back and say, look, I need a sort of at least a broad topic of conversation or a few even a few bullet points. And then as an introvert preparing for that, it's about serving the guest, isn't it? It's about the people who are listening and you want to do your best job and that really helped them think about it in advance.

David Hall [00:11:35]:
Yeah. And I could probably do a whole episode on that because it is it is important. And I did send you questions and, you know, you you sent me a couple questions in in that kind of thing. And it's not like we're scripted, but we're gonna talk we know we know what we wanna talk about. I I'm on this show. I don't wanna catch anybody off guard. I don't want people to, oh, I I I don't know. Yeah.

David Hall [00:11:56]:
I want them to have an idea so we both know what we wanna talk about. So that's great. Yeah. Express what you need. You know? Hey. What are we gonna talk about? And sometimes I've been on other podcasts and sometimes it is just kind of broad topics, but at least have those, if not some more specific questions.

Joanna Penn [00:12:14]:
Mhmm.

David Hall [00:12:15]:
What's the strength that you have because you're introvert?

Joanna Penn [00:12:18]:
Well, I think the intellection and the deep thinking and the reflection on things, I didn't even realize that was kind of an introvert thing, but that's definitely something as an author. It's the basis of what I do and turning that from something where people were like, oh, well, why don't you want to talk about that? Like, if you have a problem, I'm not a talker. I don't wanna talk about the problem. I will I will write and write and write. Like, when I got divorced, I'm happily remarried now, but when I got divorced that year, I didn't work with a counselor, although that's completely great. I couldn't speak about it, but I could write about it and think about it. And in that way, I processed the difficult times. And I also feel like that that is a superpower as an author, but, obviously, not everyone listening is an author.

Joanna Penn [00:13:08]:
It can help you in life situations. It can help you at work. I mean, so much of what we do in any job should be taking in information, thinking about it, and then bringing it back to other people. And so I do think that is a a superpower for for introverts. I also think, again, this the being able to be quiet and work alone happily for a very long time is actually quite useful, especially when many people work from home. I noticed that I'm often a lot happier. People say to me, oh, aren't you lonely? And I don't you probably feel this way too. Lonely isn't really the word.

Joanna Penn [00:13:49]:
We need people, but it's not like I go, oh, oh, I'm so lonely working alone in my office. It's it's great.

David Hall [00:13:58]:
Yeah. And and we absolutely need people. That's a myth we regularly bust on this show. Of course, we need people. We we we enjoy people. And but we also need some time alone to do work. And then sometimes we just don't mind, you know. It's like if if we're in a if we're alone, it it's fine.

David Hall [00:14:16]:
You know, we may not be seeking that, but it it's okay.

Joanna Penn [00:14:19]:
Yeah. So sometimes I do go to a local cafe and I put on noise cancelling headphones, and I quite like being there with people around me. But what I I listen to rain and thunderstorms on repeat, basically, which and that white noise shuts enough of the stimulation of the noise so that I can sit there and still be in a sort of busy environment, but still alone. So that might help for people. And I wonder I just wonder how I would've dealt with that office situation back in the day if I could've worn headphones. And now, of course, a lot of people, programmers, for example, or other people who are who are doing sort of deeper work do wear headphones to cut out the noise. So I think that's a bit of a tip if you're working in a situation where you're overstimulated, that can really help. I don't do you use noise cancelling?

David Hall [00:15:13]:
Sometimes. And I might call my wife works from home. I don't work from home all the time, but sometimes I call them wife canceling. And I tell her, I'm not gonna if if you want me, I'm not gonna be able to hear because I'm, I'm canceling.

Joanna Penn [00:15:27]:
I'm I'm plugged in. Yeah. Yeah. No. Sometimes my husband will walk in and I won't notice out the corner of my eye, and then he'll suddenly be there and I'll just jump out my skin.

David Hall [00:15:35]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, definitely, it sounds like being an introvert has contributed greatly to you being an author. Tell us a little just about the work. I mean, you you've written 45 books and, you know, a lot of them are the nonfiction are geared towards writers, and I've enjoyed those, and you also write fiction. Tell us a little just a little bit about the books that you write.

Joanna Penn [00:15:59]:
Yeah. So I guess I'm also an intuitive. So I kind of intuitively write the book that I feel is coming next, which is a is it's quite difficult to explain, but it's sort of I feel like this is what I want to write. So I don't always write to a market, especially with fiction. I just wrote a short story called Seahenge that was something I'd seen. It's an actual archaeological site, and I was like, oh, idea. Oh, want to write that. So there are I I write across thrillers, crime, horror, short stories, travel memoir, as well as nonfiction for authors, and I have the original career change book, which is still available.

Joanna Penn [00:16:36]:
So what I find as a creative is that when this impulse comes, then I think, what is that? Like, that short story, I was like, it could be a novel. It could be a much bigger project, but I felt like it's a short story. And sometimes, like, the pilgrimage memoir, which I wrote over several years, different pilgrimages, the Camino de Santiago, that kind of thing. That took a long, long time to get to that being a finished book, but it came out of various experiences along the way. And as I said, I'm a businesswoman, so I also run my own publishing company, which I don't call self publishing because I have lots of freelancers, editors, designers, all of that kind of thing. But, essentially, if you publish yourself, you retain a much larger percentage of the profits, so it is a viable business. Even as as we speak this week, Taylor Swift is going to self publish or, you know, run part of her business as publishing. So I think it's a very valid choice for people who want to do business books.

Joanna Penn [00:17:39]:
How about your process and your books? Because you're also, working on your second.

David Hall [00:17:44]:
Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. And I I I I also self published the first one and will self publish the second one. And, you know, and I've heard you say you have more control and, you know, you you own you have better rights, and so that's what I'll be doing again. And just gotta find the time to do it because I'm doing a lot of other things as you as you are aware of. Yeah.

Joanna Penn [00:18:12]:
Well, that and that's a good tip as well because when people say, oh, I want to write a book, but I don't have time, then the question is, well, what do you want to achieve? If you want to achieve that book, then you have to set aside time. So you and I and this isn't lecturing you. This is just a tip for other people, which is so you and I set a time for this interview. We both have turned up on time because we respect each other. We're doing this. This is fun for us, but this is also work for us, and then we will finish and then we'll carry on. So what I say to people is, so if you're serious about your book and you respect your creative process, then book a time in your calendar, turn up for the book as if you would turn up for someone else you respect. So as much as I do respect you, you and I have just met.

Joanna Penn [00:18:58]:
So surely, I should respect my own creativity and my own goals more than I respect an interview with someone I've just met. And so when people say, oh, I I don't have the time. They do have the time. It's just they're prioritising other things. So again, tip for listeners, get out your Google Calendar or whatever you do, and I plan my writing hours out months in advance. And I put in my writing blocks, and then I turn up and I do the work. And sometimes that work is awesome and it's fun. And and other days, it's like, oh, that's a grind.

Joanna Penn [00:19:29]:
That is a super grind, but you do it anyway because, well, for me, this is my job. It's not your job. It's not your entire job. But I don't know. What do you think about that?

David Hall [00:19:40]:
That's amazing. And the first book was time management especially for introverts. And it's not all about writing, but it's it is about prioritizing because we can't do everything. And believe me, I've tried. You know, you can't do everything. So you you have to decide what's most important. And actually, that's great advice. Block out the time for those things that are most important.

David Hall [00:20:03]:
And you do need some we do some great work if we're given some quiet and some solitude. Some great things can come from that.

Joanna Penn [00:20:12]:
Yeah. And you don't know how long necessarily it might take. Like that book, Pilgrimage, I had, like, a 100000 words of stuff when I sat you know, finally, it clicked in my brain as to what that was. But that book is so important to me and it's helped a lot of other people. It's got a midlife memoir as well. But it you just don't know where that book's going to end up. I didn't know when I wrote that book, Career Change, back in, like, 2006 to 2008 that it would change my life in the way that it has. I I could not have foreseen this future, but by taking that time and doing the work, it turned into a book.

Joanna Penn [00:20:48]:
And Seth Godin had a thing on this years ago, was the book you write may change your life. It might not change someone else's life, but it might change your life, and that's actually just as important.

David Hall [00:21:01]:
Absolutely. And I would say the same thing about this podcast. I mean Mhmm. Definitely, I hope it's great for many people, but it's it's great for me too.

Joanna Penn [00:21:11]:
Yeah. And how to feed your soul as a creative. Again, 1 on 1 conversations are how we feel most at home. And, also, we go deep on topics. Right? Whereas, if you're doing like, I've been on radio or whatever, and you might get 2 minutes. And you're like, how are we meant to say anything in 2 minutes? Whereas, you and I can talk about different things, get into topics, and go a bit deeper, and people get to know me. They get to know obviously, they know you because you're the host. And yeah.

Joanna Penn [00:21:39]:
So I agree. My podcast, the Creative Penn Podcast, also is transformational and is the basis of a side of my business, which is also good.

David Hall [00:21:48]:
Yeah. That's such a good point. And, you know, when people say that introverts don't like people, it's it's not that. It's just we don't want to stay in the small talk for a long time. We want to get to the deep things. And, yeah, I I'm I'm not interested in the more radio style interviews where it's a few minutes. I wanna hear your story. Your story is so important and, you know, and you have lots of great advice for people, tips that you've learned, especially as an introvert.

David Hall [00:22:18]:
And so, yeah, the longer form is is that's that's where I'm at.

Joanna Penn [00:22:23]:
Yeah. Me too. And it's interesting the in terms of the the peopling thing, I think one of the myths about introverts is that we're shy, and shy is a different spectrum. Do I'm not shy? I mean, I can do a networking event and talk to anyone and that's completely fine. I have a tiny bit of anxiety perhaps, but that is more around just getting into it. But I'm I I'm not I don't identify with shy. It's just that the inch the introverts prefer this 1 on 1. And off and also, I I don't know where do you think the highly sensitive person is on the spectrum with introversion? Because I find if I'm in a networking situation again with 100 of people in a room and music playing, I just find it so a bit much to then try and zone into a conversation.

David Hall [00:23:11]:
Yeah. And that that's hard for me too. I'm I'm actually not highly sensitive, and I've looked into this. And both introverts and extroverts can be highly sensitive. Out of the highly sensitive people, they're more likely to be introverts. It's like 70%. And that's something to consider too. You need to know that about yourself.

David Hall [00:23:31]:
You need to know, you know, what gifts that brings and what you need. Just like introversion, you gotta know, okay, what's my what are my strengths and what do I need? And and I I love having conversations. And I actually I like loud music, like, but I just don't like to try and talk and

Joanna Penn [00:23:48]:
At the same time.

David Hall [00:23:50]:
Have a loud loud room at the same time. But, yeah, that's, that's so important to understand all that. So I actually I read one of your books a while back, and I I really enjoyed it. It's public speaking for authors, creatives, and other introverts. And we've been talking about, you know, that you're a public speaker, and that's definitely a myth that we bust regularly on this show. So how can introverts be great public speakers?

Joanna Penn [00:24:19]:
Yeah. I mean, when I started learning professional speaking, I discovered so many introverts on the stage, and that's also true of actors. A lot of performers are introverts because it's easier to be on stage than in a crowd, which I think is kind of paradoxical. Now it doesn't mean we don't have anxiety. Obviously, I'm always on the toilet before professionally speaking. But I think for introverts, again, the preparation makes a huge difference because when we speak in public, it's not about us. It is about the transformation for the audience and the journey that we're taking the audience on. And that's actually the same with a book.

Joanna Penn [00:24:58]:
You have to structure your talk to take people on a journey from a to b in some way, And whatever book you're writing, nonfiction, fiction, you have to do, some kind of journey. Otherwise, it's just, infotainment as they might call it. So as introverts, we can prepare in advance and really shape our material to the outcome we want and also the audience. So, again, this comes down to we also have a strength in written communication. And so, often, if someone if I get booked to speak, I will ask, who are your audience? You know, if it's not obvious. If it's like, I'm speaking at a conference called author nation in Las Vegas in a couple of weeks. I know the audience because I'm the audience. So I'm you know, it's for authors, independent authors.

Joanna Penn [00:25:43]:
So I know that. But if I'm speaking to, like, a a a different group, I wanna know who they are. Even coming on this podcast, right, I'm researching who are your audience. And, here's a tip for people, perplexity dotai. Have you tried perplexity?

David Hall [00:25:58]:
I haven't.

Joanna Penn [00:25:59]:
It's great. It's kind of chat GPT meets Google, but it also has citations. So I went on there and, you know, I said, tell me about obviously, I was on your website to research, but I also went on Perplexity and said, you know, tell me about David Hall and the quiet and strong podcast. Who is the target audience? And it will kind of have a think about who that might be, and then I'll think, okay, what would be most useful for that audience? Same with speaking, it's like, who are the audience? What would be most useful to them? Tailor your material. And then that takes away a lot of the fear of professional speaking because you know you're gonna deliver value, and that is just super important. I think another thing is being comfortable with silence. So if we walk out on a stage and one of the big things to do is to just stand there while someone is introducing you. And if you can stand there and be comfortable and just look out, and I try and at least smile at a few people, that kind of thing to so being comfortable with silence is good.

Joanna Penn [00:27:01]:
And then also, the job of a speaker, like the job of an author, is a lot to do with written communication, emails. It's also platform building. Online marketing is a real sort of skill of the introvert because so much of it is done on your own. So I think all of those things come together. I don't know. You you speak. What what are what are some of your thoughts?

David Hall [00:27:23]:
Well, absolutely. It's it's, we do have a lot to say because we're always thinking, but we just need to understand where our strengths are. And you've already said, that's something I really learned was I have to prepare. I used to do some speaking with a extroverted friend of mine, and I just that just was so clear, like, of course, everybody prepares, but her preparation was different. And she was also more comfortable, you know, kinda with the winging winging winging the speech. You know, she was more comfortable with that. And that's never gonna be me. I ain't gonna I can give a great speech, but I'm gonna need to make sure that I know what I have a good idea.

David Hall [00:28:03]:
I don't you know, it's not gonna be memorized, but it's gonna be, here's these kinds of things I wanna share. Here's the stories I wanna tell. Here's the general I have to have a general idea, and so it's a lot of thought ahead of time. Like, hopefully, you know, I'm preparing well ahead of time. But then after I've done my basic, then I just kinda let my mind keep working on this in the back of my head and I might get an idea and whatever I'm doing, just kinda write that down. So my mind is still still preparing even, you know, ahead of time.

Joanna Penn [00:28:38]:
Yeah. And one of my I I don't like having to give slides in, like, a month in advance because, as you say, I mean, I will be going through my slides checking the journey for the for the listeners, but also I want to I will also also wanna update it. So, you know, my slides for alternation also, I'm speaking on AI and the future of AI for for authors and creatives, and that changes every day at the moment. So I'm like, I really like having to I really like being able to update my slides sort of up to the last minute. And, yeah, it is interesting, isn't it? I do I do think that the that more introverts should consider professional speaking because the fear of it is often greater than actually doing it, And you can really change people's lives with speaking, with podcasting, with these other methods. So, you know, more people have listened to my podcast than have bought my books. So you never know when you're gonna touch people.

David Hall [00:29:39]:
Yeah. And one more thing on public speaking. You're a storyteller, but how important is the story in public speaking? Because that's something that I've I've changed over the years. I've I've been become more of a storyteller.

Joanna Penn [00:29:53]:
Yeah. I mean, that's our culture. Our culture is oral storytelling, and one of the biggest lessons for fiction is open hooks. So that's why you'll see really good keynote speakers, you know. The one is the transformation. So you might open with some emo emotional story about how bad things were, and then there'll be a point at which you leave an open hook in the the listener's mind. And they'll be like, well, what happened next? And then the speaker has moved into some tips about communication or leadership or something. And then that open loop, then you have to close that loop by the end of the talk, and that will keep people engaged.

Joanna Penn [00:30:28]:
And one of the tricks is to have multiple open loops. So it's not just the one big one, it's all the little ones along the way. And that's yeah. In fiction, in speaking, in any of these things is to keep the interest and storytelling really is the best. Also, authenticity being very personal, I think this this confidence grows over time. So when you start out and maybe also when you're younger, you you're embarrassed or you don't wanna talk about this. And then over time, as you get more confident, you're happy to share more personal details, and those are the details that actually help people. So when you like us talking about, you know, when we thought introversion was a bad thing and we thought somehow we were wrong and then we discover it's great.

Joanna Penn [00:31:18]:
I mean, that kind of journey, that's what you talk about in the show, and that's the valuable part. So, yeah, just just to encourage people, whatever whether you're writing nonfiction or podcasting or speaking, sharing your personal journey is is just so important.

David Hall [00:31:32]:
Yeah. Absolutely. And so that brings us let's talk about your latest book. It's called writing the shadow, turn your inner darkness into words. Tell us about that. What is the shadow?

Joanna Penn [00:31:44]:
Yes. So it's based on the work of Carl Jung, psychologist Carl Jung, and I studied psychology way back at a level. So here in the UK, that's age 16 to 18, and that's when I first heard about it, and I'm nearly 50. And so it's basically the unconscious side of the personality that the conscious mind rejects or suppresses. So that's so that introversion is a good example. Why can't I or I should behave like this in public, and that side of me that hates it, I'm going to have to repress because that's not normal. So for me, introversion was in the shadow for a long time. But then it's also things like society might tell us that's wrong, or you can't think that, you can't do that, you're not allowed to be that.

Joanna Penn [00:32:28]:
And, of course, that happens to a lot of different people. Might be family or religion or just generally society. And I've thought about it for a long time. So again, just another personal thing back in my twenties, I I did in fact, during the IT time, I used to binge drink, and that's quite common for people in their twenties, but I used to drink sometimes to get rid of pain, and that is a common reason for people to drink. And it wasn't until I could address what are the underlying reasons for that that I could really start to heal myself. So the idea of the book was kind of an exploration of what are the different aspects of the shadow. So I do have things like the shadow in money. Why do we have so many issues around money or faith or writing? Publishing has a ton of shadow in it.

Joanna Penn [00:33:14]:
All these different things and then how we can delve into that to enrich both our our writing, our speaking, and also ourselves kind of change our lives. And just, I guess, sticking on the shadow of being an introvert, conflict avoidance would be something that we're we do, a lot of introverts. We we don't necessarily want to to do conflict. We may avoid people too much. We may be too independent. So you can end up on the extreme of anything and you probably end up in the shadow. Anything that goes too extreme when you start reacting against the other and someone else's position is wrong, you know all about this in your politics in America. And that's when you start sort of making things too black and white and you actually need to see the shadows.

David Hall [00:34:09]:
Yeah. So how do we how do we explore our own shadows? How do we get to know what those are?

Joanna Penn [00:34:14]:
Yeah. I mean, obviously, it's a bit difficult. I always talk about it kind of looking out the corner of your eye. And one of the things I like, especially at the moment, is this idea of triggers. So you know when you're triggered. Right? Do you do you have a benign example of of triggering for you?

David Hall [00:34:31]:
I have to think about that.

Joanna Penn [00:34:33]:
Yeah. You have to think about that while I talk a bit, but I think it's really interesting. So so trigger thing for me is lazy. The word lazy. I I just I can't stand being called lazy. Not that anyone does call me lazy because I work really hard, but it comes from my childhood when, you know, the the the sort of protestant work ethic thing. Being lazy is the worst thing. And so anyone who might if I'm walking through a lovely park on a lovely sunny day and there's people just lying there enjoying themselves, in my mind, the word lazy comes up.

Joanna Penn [00:35:05]:
I should be working. And while this is in some ways a good thing because it's driven my career, it's also a really bad thing because it means rest is very hard. And, you know, you can take that to the extremes about the type the type of people who I might consider lazy, and I've had to recognize that as, no, rest is important. It's it's reframing the things that trigger you. So that's a it's a kind of benign I idea in that situation. It's not it doesn't have to be like devil worship in your family or anything like that. It can be these things, but we're all triggered by something. So did you did you think of 1?

David Hall [00:35:43]:
Yeah. And, of course, as an introvert, it's okay to say, let me think about that. Oh, yes. It doesn't always work on a podcast. But, yeah, you mentioned earlier in the show that you were intuitive. I am too. And sometimes we just know things without having to see all the details. And I don't like getting questioned on my intuition.

David Hall [00:36:06]:
So, you know, it's like Interesting. I just know this, you know, I'd and sometimes I can't even tell you exactly how I know it, but I know it. And I I don't like getting questioned on that by someone that really just has to see all the details.

Joanna Penn [00:36:20]:
Which is interesting. And then let's take that to the extreme, which is you will not always be right. So there will be at some point in your life, if it hasn't been so far, your intuition will be wrong. And so to me, I immediately think you're afraid of being wrong in that situation, so you don't wanna be questioned. And that's almost the fear of conflict that I just talked about. So how how does that make you feel?

David Hall [00:36:48]:
Hey, it's true. I mean, you know, I'm not wrong very much.

Joanna Penn [00:36:55]:
But I

David Hall [00:36:55]:
think Yeah. Yeah. That that's true. I I don't wanna be wrong.

Joanna Penn [00:36:58]:
Yeah. So in the book, I kind of you know, there are some, obviously, some very big things when you need a professional to help you. But very much a lot of the things in our lives that could be improved or things were like, why am I like that? So returning to money again, the reason I said earlier, I didn't wanna be a poor author in a Garrett is because that is a meme in the author community. If you wanna write fiction, pea like, people will still say to me when they when I say I'm an author, I write fiction, they'll say, oh, that's just a hobby, isn't it? And I'll be like, no. I run I run my own company and I'm very successful. Thank you very much. And and I that triggers me when people say, oh, you must be a you must it just must be a hobby. That triggers me too because I take this very seriously.

Joanna Penn [00:37:44]:
When people say, oh, you're just self publishing, I feel that undermines the professionalism of what is a career. So that all these things and people listening, just think about what triggers you. And again, returning to your politics, which we won't go into, but there's a lot of triggering words and behavior going on in the media that's designed to provoke a reaction. And so it's really thinking about why do we see someone else as stupid or morally wrong or evil. They're not like us. They don't think like us. They think the other thing. Therefore, they're the extreme end of the spectrum, whereas, you know, most likely you're quite close in a lot of ways.

Joanna Penn [00:38:24]:
There's just some aspects of thinking. So when we examine the shadow in ourselves, it can help us to see the shadows in other people in a in a more a way with more perspective. You know what I mean? Rather than demonizing someone for alcoholism, you can say, okay, when did I use alcohol or something else or binge eating to deal with my emotional pain? How can I reflect that? Can I see that in that other person and see how that's gone too far? So, yeah, I think if we work on our shadow side, it's like an onion though. You peel one thing away and there's there's something else.

David Hall [00:39:04]:
Yeah. For sure. So you also talk about, you know, how we can explore the darkness but not get lost in it. How tell us about that.

Joanna Penn [00:39:13]:
Yeah. So this is very much the self care angle. So one example is a few years ago, as I said, I'm almost 50, but, like, 4 or 5 years ago, I was I started through perimenopause, which for women, you know, is a big time in our lives. And I didn't really know what was happening hormonally, and I felt basically like killing myself. I had suicidal thoughts, and I was so I was, you know, feeling depressed and I just didn't wanna do anything. I just wanna stay in bed all day and I couldn't work out what was going wrong. And in that situation, I wrote a lot for sure. I've journaled, but I could not fix this by journaling.

Joanna Penn [00:39:46]:
So in that case, I did go to a menopause doctor and that helped me with that situation. So we don't become lost in exploring the shadow if it may damage us or somebody else. So for example, rage publishing. Yeah. If you have had a messy divorce or something and you write a book about it and then you rage publish, I don't recommend that either. You can write for therapy, but then there is a a professional process of of what you should publish. But I think you it's kind of balancing that I need to delve into this and figure out why I think that way, why I act that way. Here's another good one.

Joanna Penn [00:40:28]:
We're as as we recall this, we're heading towards Christmas. Christmas is a triggering time for everyone or Thanksgiving as well in America when your family come together. Now I'm the eldest of 5 siblings. Right? How often do our parents trigger us and our siblings trigger us? And I'm with my brother, I sometimes end up behaving like a 15 year old because something he says will trigger some childhood thing, and then I'll just react to him. And unless I'm, you know, thinking about why why did I say that? And I'm like, because he wound you up when we were teenagers, and you're just behaving that way. So I think the tapping into the shadow side and examining ourselves and trying to improve ourselves. But if it's something truly traumatic or something that you need help with, you need to recognize that and and go and seek help.

David Hall [00:41:17]:
Yeah. For sure. Mhmm. So you also talk about how, you know, exploring our shadow can help us really honor who we are. And as you put it, turn turn our our shadow into gold. Tell us about that.

Joanna Penn [00:41:33]:
Yeah. So so again, this is a a Jungian quote about turning your shadow into gold, which I love, which again, coming back on the introversion, once we recognize who we are, that can help us live in a more authentic way. And that self development is itself gold. Or for example, with my fiction, once I so I really like cemeteries, ossuaries, graveyards, skulls. I've got, like, a sugar skull behind me on the video. You can see. And I like death culture and morbid anatomy and all of this kind of stuff. And I you I would never have mentioned that maybe 5 years ago, even 5 years ago, because people think you're weird.

Joanna Penn [00:42:14]:
But then then you when you start to realize what's the shadow of death for some people versus other people, you realize that most people have death in the shadow. They do not they have not done a will. They have not talked about it with their family. They have not got anything in place for if anything happens or an advanced directive and all this. Obviously, I did that when I was, like, 21. But it's when we all have different feelings about different stuff and anyway, coming back to to me, when I started to identify that, I was like, there are other people like me. So I'm gonna dig deep into that. I'm gonna write more books that resonate with those themes.

Joanna Penn [00:42:52]:
Life and death is is the theme of much writing. So, you know, really get into that. So for me, it's also turned into the gold in terms of the business because I've turned what was considered bad into something that that fuels my writing. So a lot of this is sort of deciding what is gold for you. Is it personal transformation? Is it something that will help you in your business? And then sort of taking action towards that.

David Hall [00:43:22]:
Yeah. So tell us again, like, how has this gold how's that helped you as a author?

Joanna Penn [00:43:29]:
Well, I think I mean, just, I guess, a really obvious idea is when you're writing a character, coming back to the alcoholism, you know, you can write a character who has a problem with drugs or alcohol, and then if you haven't examined the idea of the shadow, you might just write them as a one dimensional character. But when you examine the shadow and the side of you that could have ended up that way or, you know, there's a lot of reasons people end up that way, then you can write that person in a different way. So no longer you have a sort of cardboard cutout villain and a hero who does no wrong, you know, you can really have much more nuanced characters because you understand that you are nuanced. We all we're all the hero in our own story. Right? But we are not all good all the time as much as we want to be. And even if we consider our behavior in a certain situation to be correct or right or good, other people might not see it that way. So including our family, including our friends. So this is the thing.

Joanna Penn [00:44:25]:
It's very much about just seeing the nuance, and shadow, of course, is between darkness and light. So instead of seeing darkness and light, you also see the shadows in between, which makes life richer, more complicated, but richer, I think. I don't know what how do you feel about that? Does the word shadow resonate with you?

David Hall [00:44:44]:
Yeah. Absolutely. And as you're talking, I was just thinking, yeah, it really helps you bring your authenticity and help because, you know, maybe you you said you didn't wanna talk about certain things even 5 years ago, but it's part the darkness is part of who we all are. And Yeah. You know, let's be authentic with each other and share and share those things. It's really important.

Joanna Penn [00:45:08]:
Mhmm. Mhmm. And, of course, now now with things like Netflix, have you seen Wednesday? Do you like Wednesday on Netflix?

David Hall [00:45:15]:
I haven't watched it. I'm I'm familiar. Yeah.

Joanna Penn [00:45:17]:
You're familiar with it? So when Wednesday came out and what was lovely on social media was all the people like me who were sort of who don't look like goths but are goths inside. Vanilla goths, we might say. Okay. Everyone was on social. So I'm like, if I ever do go to a convention and wear, like, cosplay, I think I'm just gonna go as Wednesday.

David Hall [00:45:36]:
Awesome. That's great. Joe, this has been such a great conversation. We've talked a lot about introvert's strengths and needs and busted some myths and a lot about writing as introverts or just writing in general. Is there anything else that you wanna add?

Joanna Penn [00:45:53]:
I think just to encourage people, if you do feel the urge to write or you're the type of person who just loves books, then this is really the best time in history to be a writer and to, you know, make you can make a living with writing. Obviously, it's a it's a different path depending on which way you choose, but I I love writing. I think, again, as introverts, it's it's a superpower to think this deeply about topics, and I think the world needs more writers. I still think everyone should write a book or 2 like yourself. You don't need to do it like me for a job, but yeah. So I I would encourage people to think about making the time, like we said, get out your calendar, put the time in, and, you will end up with a book.

David Hall [00:46:38]:
Yeah. And, you know, we do have a gift in writing as introverts. Definitely. And I will attest, you have many great books to help authors. In your podcast, you're approaching 800 episodes. That's amazing. So I I recommend your work. Where can people find out the great work that you're doing?

Joanna Penn [00:46:56]:
Yes. Well, since this is a podcast, you can come on over to mine, the Creative Penn podcast, p e, double n. And, my books are on all the platforms, in all the formats, and writing the shadow, for example, I narrate the audiobook. So if you've enjoyed my English accent, then, you can listen to that audiobook wherever there are audiobooks, but they're also in all the usual formats. And my Instagram, I guess, is atjfpenauthor.

David Hall [00:47:22]:
Awesome. Thanks again, Jo. This has been a great conversation.

Joanna Penn [00:47:25]:
Thanks for having me.

David Hall [00:47:27]:
Thank you so much for joining me today. I look forward to further connecting with you. Reach out at david@quietandstrong.com or check out the quietandstrong.com website, which includes blog posts and links to social media channels. Send me topics or guests you would like to see on the show. If you're interested in getting to know yourself better, there's now a free type finder personality assessment on the Quiet and Strong website. This free assessment will give you a brief report, including the 4 letter Myers Briggs code, and you can also have the option of purchasing the full report if you'd like to learn more. I'll add a link to the show notes. So many great things about being an introvert, and we need those to be understood.

David Hall [00:48:08]:
Get to know your introverted strengths and needs, and be strong.