Ep 207 - Standing Out As An Introvert In A Noisy Online World With Guest Nicole Kepic

Are you an introvert struggling to find your voice in a noisy world? In this episode of The Quiet And Strong Podcast, host David Hall is joined by Nicole Kepic, an accomplished copywriter and author. Nicole shares her personal journey of embracing her introversion and leveraging it as a strength in to stand out in a crowded online space.

Discover the intriguing story of how Nicole transitioned from her busy corporate life to running a successful freelance business, all while embracing her introverted qualities. Hear about her initial struggles with the perception that introverts can’t succeed in highly social environments and how she overcame this misconception through a powerful conversation that changed her perspective.

Whether you're an introverted entrepreneur or just someone looking to understand the unique strengths of introverts, this episode offers actionable insights, relatable stories, and practical advice. Nicole's journey is inspiring, and her strategies for success are highly applicable to anyone looking to make their mark while staying true to who they are.

Embrace your introverted strengths, learn strategies for success, and be strong!

Episode Link: QuietandStrong.com/207

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Nicole Kepic is a sales page copywriter with over 20 years of copywriting experience, previously writing for big brands like Kellogg’s, Walmart, Frito Lay, and Keurig. Today, she helps online coaches and creatives stand out from the crowd, attract their ideal clients, and sell out their signature offers with fun, feel-good sales copy. 

Nicole is also the author of “Don’t Ask Me to Be Loud: The Introverted Girl’s Guide to Online Business.” In this fun, relatable book, she shows you how you DON’T need to be the loudest or boldest person on the internet to run a thriving, joyful, and in-demand business. When she’s not on her laptop, Nicole is usually spending time with her family or staying up way past her bedtime to devour a suspense novel.

You can learn more about her at nicolekepic.com or hang out with her on social media (where you WON’T see her dancing).

Socials: Facebook | Instagram |

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Contact the Host of the Quiet and Strong Podcast:

David Hall

Author, Speaker, Educator, Podcaster

quietandstrong.com
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david [at] quietandstrong.com

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Transcript

Nicole Kepic [00:00:00]:
I was chatting with another baseball mom. We were probably missing most of the game because we were just chatting chatting. And she said that she was an introvert, and she was reading a book on introversion. And I remember, like, I don't know if I interrupted her, but I was basically like, wait. Hold the phone. You're an introvert. Like but you're so friendly, and you have so many friends, and you're so social. And she was, like, one of those people that just had so many friends and was just so I don't know.

Nicole Kepic [00:00:24]:
I just really looked up to her, and I thought she was just, like, such an amazing person. And everything I had heard about introversion, it seemed to be more of the negative, like, you're not good with people, you don't have social skills, you know, all those things that are so not true. And so I always thought, why would I wanna put that word introvert? Why would I wanna attach that to my name if that's what it means, if that's what people think? So I fought it, but it's almost like this conversation with the baseball mom gave me permission, as cheesy as it sounds, to be like, oh, okay. She's an introvert? I can call myself an introvert too because it wasn't this negative thing anymore.

David Hall [00:01:10]:
Hello, and welcome to episode 207 of the Quiet and Strong podcast, especially for introverts. I'm your host, David Hall, and the creator of quiet and strong dot com. It's a weekly podcast dedicated to understanding the strengths and needs of introverts along with strategies for success. Introversion is not something to fix, but to be embraced. Normally, we'll air each episode on a Monday. Be sure to subscribe on your favorite platform. Leave a review or a rating. That would mean a lot to me and help others find the show.

David Hall [00:01:40]:
Tell a friend about the podcast and help get the word out there, that introversion is a beautiful thing. Nicole Capek is a sales page copywriter with over 20 years of copywriting experience, previously writing for big brands like Kellogg's, Walmart, Frito Lay, and Keurig. Today, she helps online coaches and creatives stand out from the crowd, attract their ideal clients, and sell their signature offers with fun, feel good sales copy. Nicole is also the author of don't ask me to be loud, the introverted girl's guide to online business. In this fun, relatable book, she also shows you how you don't need to be the loudest or the boldest person on the Internet to run a thriving and joyful and in demand business. Alright. Well, Nicole, welcome to the Quiet and Strong podcast.

David Hall [00:02:32]:
It's so good to have you on today.

Nicole Kepic [00:02:35]:
Thank you so much for having me. I'm also so glad that we connected on LinkedIn too because I've been ignoring LinkedIn for the past 15 years, and then it was nice to hop back on and meet new connections. So yeah.

David Hall [00:02:47]:
Yeah. Absolutely. So we're gonna get into your new book, but let's start with you. Like, tell us a little bit about yourself, your fellow introvert, your journey as an introvert to doing the work that you're doing now.

Nicole Kepic [00:03:00]:
Sure. Yeah. So I am based just outside of Toronto in Canada. I am a copywriter for online business owners. 99% of them are women. I will say that, but I do have a token a couple token male clients. Yeah. So it's just writing website copy, sales page copy, email copy.

Nicole Kepic [00:03:17]:
But in terms of being an introvert, it definitely impacted the way my the direction my career went and how I landed here. So if we go way back in time, I went to school for journalism because I loved writing. And at the time, it was kinda like if you liked writing, your guidance counselor said you could either be a journalist or you could be an English teacher. So I chose journalism, but I quickly realized that as an introvert, my personality, like, I just wasn't cut out for the hard news journalism or I didn't enjoy it. I didn't enjoy the aspect of racing to the scene and getting the scoop and, you know, being aggressive and putting mics in people's faces. Like, I know journalism is not just that, but that's what it felt like to me, and it just wasn't my vibe with being an introvert even if I didn't know at the time that that's what it was called, introversion. So long story short, I, you know, I finished my journalism degree, but when all my friends were applying to journalism jobs at papers and TV studios, I decided to go a different route. I decided to apply for a copywriting job.

Nicole Kepic [00:04:20]:
So that's why I went in that direction. So, yeah, that's how I landed in copywriting, and that was over 20 years ago. So I've been doing this a long time. And, yeah, it's funny because last week, I was going through these bins in my basement storage, and I found a report from my internship when I was in school. I was interning at this local paper. And at the end of the 6 weeks, the editor there, he wrote this report on my performance, basically. And he said he said, like, you know, she's got great attitude. She's really hardworking.

Nicole Kepic [00:04:52]:
Her writing is good, especially for the human interest lifestyle pieces. But if she wants a career in hard news, she's gonna have to be more assertive. She's gonna have to be more aggressive and not so trusting of her sources, which I thought was funny. And he even said, like, she needs to lose the Gauley g approach. And I read this,

David Hall [00:05:13]:
and

Nicole Kepic [00:05:13]:
I was kind of offended. You know? Just last week when I was reading this, I'm like, that was so rude of him to say, but he was right. He was totally right. And so, yeah, even then, I knew that just wasn't for me. So I think I landed where I needed to land.

David Hall [00:05:26]:
Yeah. Absolutely. And when did you put the name introvert to it all, and did you have to go through a process of embracing it?

Nicole Kepic [00:05:36]:
Yes. Definitely. And, you know, it definitely wasn't back then. You know, at the time in my early twenties when I was in that golly g world, I didn't realize I was an introvert then. You know, I understood my personality, but I didn't necessarily don't know if I'd ever heard the word introvert introvert before or understand that label. I think it was more so in the last, you know, maybe 8 to 10 years. I do remember a specific conversation that really changed my my mind on the topic, And it was at a baseball tournament. My son plays a baseball, and I was chatting with another baseball mom.

Nicole Kepic [00:06:08]:
We were probably missing most of the game because we were just chatting, chatting. And she said that she was an introvert, and she was reading a book on introversion. And I remember, like, I don't know if I interrupted her, but I was basically, like, wait. Hold the phone. You're an introvert. Like, you but you're so friendly, and you have so many friends, and you're so social. And I just you know? And she was, like, one of those people that just had so many friends and was just so I I don't know. I just really looked up to her, and I thought she was just, like, such an amazing person.

Nicole Kepic [00:06:38]:
And everything I had heard about introversion, it seemed to be more of the negative. Like, you're not good with people. You don't have social skills. You know, all those things that are so not true. And so I always thought, why would I wanna put that word introvert? Why would I wanna attach that to my name if that's what it means, if that's what people think? So I, you know, I fought it, but it's almost like this conversation with the baseball mom gave me permission, as cheesy as it sounds, to be like, oh, okay. She's an introvert? I can call myself an introvert too because it wasn't this negative thing anymore. So so, yeah, I definitely fought it in the beginning, And then through that conversation was like, yes. I can call myself an introvert.

Nicole Kepic [00:07:19]:
It's okay. I can be a proud introvert. But then along the way, I still had to, you know, embrace it because they there were certainly times where I thought, oh, it would just be easier if I was an extrovert. It would be easier to stand out in the online business world if I had more extrovert quality. So it's a journey still, but for the most part, yes, a 100% embracing the introvert vibe.

David Hall [00:07:40]:
Yeah. And that's why we're talking today. You know, there's somebody out there that may have just been inspired by your story that is like, oh, yes. I am an introvert. And, you know, it's like, not only we're embracing it, but we're realizing there's great strengths that come from it. You know, it's not it's not just something that we have to accept. It's like something that it's like, wow. I am a great thinker.

David Hall [00:08:04]:
You know? I am I have a great imagination. All of these things that, you know, make you a great writer. You know? It's because you're a deep thinker. You know? But there's needs that come with it too. But, yeah. And it's that we do plenty of myth busting. You know? And you saw this person that seemed to be very social. Of course, introverts can be very social.

David Hall [00:08:25]:
You know? That kind of thing. What is the strength that you have because you're an introvert?

Nicole Kepic [00:08:31]:
I would say I mean, I would like to say that I'm a good listener. Hopefully, that's the case. So that's probably one is that, you know, I'm a good listener. I think because especially when I'm with a group of people, I don't feel the need to dominate the conversation and jump in and be the loudest person in the room. So I think I'm content to kind of sit back and listen and especially 1 on 1 if I'm with somebody. I I try to be really conscious of letting them speak and tell their story, and I'm really interested genuinely interested in what they have to say. So that's probably the biggest one. And, you know, paired with that would be empathy.

Nicole Kepic [00:09:06]:
So, you know, just trying to understand where someone's at even if I haven't lived their experiences myself. And this certainly comes in handy when I'm writing because a lot of writing copywriting is empathizing with your readers, empathizing with their pain points even if you haven't experienced them themselves. So, yeah, listening and empathy tied tied in together.

David Hall [00:09:27]:
Yeah. That's great. So, you know, you're you were kinda figuring out that you were an introvert and, you know, working for working for other people. How did you decide to strike out on your own?

Nicole Kepic [00:09:39]:
Yeah. That was it was a journey. It was certainly not an overnight leap. So I yeah. And like I said, I've been copywriting for over 20 years. So I went into the corporate world as a senior copywriter. Well, not as a senior I started as a junior copywriter, let's be clear, and then moved up to senior copywriter. But basically, my whole corporate career was being a senior copywriter at creative agencies or different corporate companies.

Nicole Kepic [00:10:02]:
But somewhere along the way, I had started my own freelance writing business on the side. I think it was probably in between jobs. You know, I just started writing on the side for a couple of clients. And then just over the years, over about 10 years, like I said, this was not a quick jump. It just grew and grew on the side, my freelance writing business. And it got to the point where life was just so busy. So I suddenly had this freelance business that was taking up all my nights and weekends. And then I had a 9 to 5 job where I was commuting at least an hour each away and then coming home and doing assignments.

Nicole Kepic [00:10:37]:
And I just got to this point. And then, of course, like I said, my son's in baseball. He was in hockey at the time. We live in Canada. So that's the thing. Life was just really busy, and I got to the point of, like, okay. Something here has to go. And, you know, in the beginning when I started my side hustle, it was never the dream to do it full time.

Nicole Kepic [00:10:56]:
It was just kind of like, oh, extra trip money. But then as it grew, it became more clear to me that this could be a thing. This could actually be a thing for me. So, you know, I started having conversations with the husband like, hey. What do you think of this if I quit my corporate job with great benefits and steady pay? And, you know, those conversations were had. And then it wasn't until 2020 that I left corporate finally because I was like, okay. It's time. I've I've done my due diligence.

Nicole Kepic [00:11:25]:
I've set up systems, and, you know, it's time to do it. So I left my corporate job, which I actually liked. It wasn't this horror story of horrible bosses and horrible people. I really liked it, and that's probably what made me stay so long is because I liked it. Yes. I quit my corporate job in 2020. It it wasn't even time, just COVID. It just happened to be that way.

Nicole Kepic [00:11:46]:
And then I, you know, went full time with my business and started writing for online business owners.

David Hall [00:11:54]:
Awesome. Did you have to make any changes in your mindset going from being an employee to now being your own boss, you know, being a CEO and now an author?

Nicole Kepic [00:12:04]:
Yes. A 100%. And there was so much learning too. Like, I I felt like I had you know, I've been doing copywriting for so long, and, you know, I had side clients with my freelance business. So I at least had, you know, the client experience aspect down pat, but then you switch to the online business world, and suddenly, it's like you feel like a newbie. There's so much to learn. There's so many things like, oh, wait. I have to create lead magnets and build an email list, and and suddenly you're just in charge of so many things, and it's it's not just you providing your service anymore.

Nicole Kepic [00:12:36]:
It's you doing the marketing, the accounting, like, you know, it's it's everything. Right? So that was a big thing, just all the learning involved. And I think also just the mindset of, you know, when you're freelancing an employee, you have that mindset of being at somebody else's beck and call, essentially. Like, you are serving them. You are working for them. And then you switch to running your own company, and you have to switch the mindset from that, you know, employee mindset to the CEO mindset. So for me, that looked like, okay. I'm in charge of my time.

Nicole Kepic [00:13:09]:
I'm in charge of my energy. So if I'm feeling burnt out and overworked and I'm working all the time, that's my that's my fault. I can change that. Or maybe it was me understanding that understanding that I didn't have to accept every client. If somebody was, like, fire hosing me with red flags, I could listen to my guide and say, you know what? Maybe this is not a good idea. Thank you, but no. Thank you. Please find another copywriter.

Nicole Kepic [00:13:33]:
And, you know, just making more of those high level decisions.

David Hall [00:13:36]:
Yeah. So was it a good move for you?

Nicole Kepic [00:13:40]:
Absolutely. I mean, I will say that 2024, there were it felt a bit harder. I will say that just in the sense of, you know, before I would post on Instagram and get so many more inquiries. And I think because I haven't fully embraced reels, that hasn't been the case anymore. But, yeah, I had you know, I've been busy ever since I left my corporate job. It's I've always had steady work just because I think copywriting is what every business needs. But, yeah, it's certainly, like, not always easy. Lots of limiting beliefs, those kind of things that you have to work through as a business owner.

Nicole Kepic [00:14:14]:
So yeah.

David Hall [00:14:16]:
How'd you work through those limiting beliefs?

Nicole Kepic [00:14:18]:
It's a journey. Probably my biggest limiting belief was, you know, when I first went from corporate to the online business world, I worried, how am I gonna stand out? Like, you know, you hop on Instagram and you see that there are 10,000,000,000 other copywriters. So, you know, a part of me thought how, especially as an introvert, how am I gonna stand out against all these other people? Me, the quiet, unassuming copywriter compared to these people with louder, bolder personality. So that was a big one. But then I just had to trust that, you know, there will always be people that resonate with my personality, my style, my work especially too. So you just have to trust that the right people will find you, and that has certainly been the case.

David Hall [00:15:00]:
I think that's so key to these conversations. It's it's you don't have to be all things, all people, and you can't be. That's something that I definitely have learned. But there there are people that need your particular gifts and strengths, and they're really gonna resonate with you, and there's gonna be people that don't. And sometimes that's hard to come to terms with and accept. Hey. Wait. Everybody doesn't resonate with me.

David Hall [00:15:26]:
No. There are people that need you, and there are people that need somebody else.

Nicole Kepic [00:15:31]:
Yeah. For sure. And I think I don't know if it's an introvert quality or just, you know, a quality I have is being a people pleaser. It's like, yeah, I want everyone to like me. So if people don't like me, it's, you know, it it hurts the heart a little bit. But you're so right. You can't please everyone just like you can't serve everyone. You know? So you shouldn't have a 1000000 different services trying to please everyone.

Nicole Kepic [00:15:53]:
You should really hone in on a few or or just one core service so that you can really be strong in that service.

David Hall [00:15:59]:
Yeah. Yeah. That's just important to remember. Let's talk about your new book. Don't Ask Me to Be Loud, The Introverted Girl's Guide to Online Business. Tell us about that. Yeah.

Nicole Kepic [00:16:12]:
So I I mean, I've always wanted to write a book ever since I was young. I remember being in my twenties. I didn't know what I wanted to write about. I just knew I wanted to be an author. And I remember being in my early twenties thinking I better write a book fast. I need to write a book before I'm 30 because when I'm 30, I will be old, and I don't want an old picture of me on the back of a book, which I think is so funny now that I'm, you know, kinda late mid to late forties and finally writing a book. But, yeah, it's it it's basically my experience as an online business owner and, of course, targeted you know, not targeted, but for my readers, like, showing them all the lessons I've learned, some how tos, and lots of stories throughout. But, basically, the premise is that you don't have to have to be the loudest person on the Internet to have a thriving, joyful, in demand business.

Nicole Kepic [00:17:02]:
You don't have to be loud and bold. You can be an introvert and have a really successful business. So as a copywriter, I thought about making the book just about copywriting, but I just wanted it to be more holistic than that. So there's a big section on copywriting for sure. There's a big chapter on it, but I also talk about branding, visibility, marketing, pricing, selling, client boundaries, all of those things, all of those things that go into running a business all through the lens of an introvert or introverts.

David Hall [00:17:33]:
Yeah. That's amazing. And that's that's a lot of what I do on this podcast. It's like we can be wildly successful, but in an authentic way, that's what's really gonna work. And so we have people like yourself on the show that have learned to embrace their introverted gifts and approach it in their way for success because, you know, we can be successful in anything. But me giving a speech and my extroverted friend giving a speech, we're probably gonna prepare in a different way, and we're probably gonna do that whole thing in a different way. We're gonna succeed differently, but, you know, we can be great leaders. We can be great public speakers, but embracing ourselves and not trying to be something that we're not because I, again, I I definitely tried that.

David Hall [00:18:24]:
It didn't work didn't work very well.

Nicole Kepic [00:18:27]:
Yeah. It doesn't work, and I find it's not enjoyable. Right? When you're trying to be somebody else, somebody you're not, it just feels hard and it's not enjoyable. So there's so many ways to do things. So why do why choose the ways that are not feel that are not feeling aligned to what you enjoy? You know, you might as well just be yourself and have more fun doing it.

David Hall [00:18:48]:
Yeah. Yeah. You know, we we we talk about the traditional networking event and, you know, and the extrovert's gonna bounce from person to person. And not only do I not enjoy that, it's not gonna be effective for me. But if I could have a couple good conversations, that's what's gonna work for me, you know, to have a goal and and and meet my goal and not try to do things in the traditional way. That's that's what's gonna work. Not it. Yeah.

David Hall [00:19:18]:
You don't enjoy it and it's not effective.

Nicole Kepic [00:19:22]:
Yeah. For sure. And I like how you've said before that certain activities aren't necessarily extroverted or introverted. You just approach them in different way ways. So like you said, networking, I would have before thought, okay. That's an extroverted activity. No. You can network as an introvert, but like you said, you're gonna approach it a different way and just have a different take on it.

David Hall [00:19:40]:
Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Thank you for bringing that up because it's like it it drives me crazy because I think that I think everybody has gifts. Introverts, extroverts, we all have gifts. And when you start to call things extroverted, you're kinda, like, you're kind of, like, discounting our gifts because, like I said, I I enjoy podcasting. I needed to prepare, you know, we talked about some things we might you know, questions ahead of time. But I love this.

David Hall [00:20:10]:
I'm not, like, pretending to be an extrovert to do this podcast. I'm doing it in my way, and I'm enjoying it, but I'm not an extrovert because I'm doing it. I'm not an extrovert because I give a speech. I so thank you for saying that. That's, that's really important. We need to really say, hey. You know what? Everybody has gifts. We all are great in our own ways, but, you know, don't ask me to be something I'm not.

Nicole Kepic [00:20:34]:
Exactly. Yeah. It was funny because, you know, just podcasting, like you said, some people would consider that an extroverted activity. And I was even talking to my mom last week, and I mentioned this podcast interview. And she said, oh my gosh. That would just make me so nervous. I can't believe you could do that. I said, no, mom.

Nicole Kepic [00:20:50]:
It's fine. It's a one to one conversation. We're even chatting ahead of time, so it's fine. Don't worry about me.

David Hall [00:20:58]:
Yeah. That's great. And it it and you know what? That's the thing. We do like 1 on 1 conversations. We do like to connect with people, you know, deeply. As you work with your clients, you really enjoy that. You know, you enjoy that connection and really getting at what do they need. You know? It's just you may not enjoy, you know, going back to the traditional networking event and just bouncing around from person to person.

David Hall [00:21:23]:
But the connection is really important to you and to us as introverts, and there's so many myths out there. We're definitely gonna bust some of those today.

Nicole Kepic [00:21:32]:
Yeah. I think that one to one is really important too, and it can really foster longer, deeper connections with with clients. So instead of just having a one off job with your clients, you know, if you take the time and do that one to one and really build that relationship, they will be be more likely to come back to you for more work because, you know, you're not just something on their schedule to be done. And then, you know, out the door, you wanna have a long lasting relationship with them.

David Hall [00:21:59]:
Yeah. Absolutely. So all the things we're talking about really I love the title of your book. Don't ask me to be loud. It's like yeah. Let me be my authentic self. Let me you know, you be your authentic self. Let me be my authentic self, and great things are gonna come with that.

David Hall [00:22:14]:
But I love I love your title.

Nicole Kepic [00:22:16]:
Oh, perfect. Because it's funny. When I ran it by my book coach at first, I think she was kinda, like, humming and hawing because she wanted a title that was a bit more SEO friendly, as in, you know, people are gonna go to Amazon and type in specific words. So I think she really wanted the word introvert in the title or business. Basically, she wanted my subtitle as my title, but then when I pulled my audience, they they really resonated with that title because the the history or the backstory behind that title is that so often, especially in the corporate world, I would have bosses, well meaning bosses, who would say to me, You have such great ideas. You just need to be louder. You need to speak up more. You need to be bolder.

Nicole Kepic [00:22:56]:
And like I said, they were you know, they had my best intentions at heart and they wanted the best for me, But it always felt like, oh, seriously? Like, why do I have to change? Why can't my writing just speak for itself? Or why can't my work speak for itself? It always felt like I had to change my personality if I wanted to succeed in business. So I I always wanted to say, like, stop asking me to be louder. Please just let me be me. So that is the premise of the title. And like I said, when I pulled my audience, some of the people said, yes. That really resonates with me because in so many ways, I was told to be louder too or be to be this or that when I just wanted to be myself. So that's kind of the premise. With that said, in the book, I do talk a bit about breaking out of your comfort zone.

Nicole Kepic [00:23:41]:
So the book is all about being who you are, embracing your introversion, not having to change, you know, in a big way, but being open to tiny changes, being open to a bit of reinvention so you're not just stuck. You're willing to try things a bit out of your comfort zone so that, you know, you can feel the pride and accomplishment of succeeding at something new. You're not just staying stuck.

David Hall [00:24:03]:
Yeah. And as an introvert, most introverts have gone through that starting in school, like, you know, speak up more, all all of that. And the it's really, like you're saying, we can absolutely get out of our comfort zones. And one thing one thing that I've learned in all of this is I I used to be shy. I used to lack confidence when I didn't understand my introversion. When I didn't understand that I was a deep thinker, that I most of the time, I'm gonna think and then speak. When I didn't understand all that, I was I was definitely lack confidence. Now I'm not shy.

David Hall [00:24:41]:
I don't lack confidence, but I also realize that I'm gonna do more thinking than my extroverted friend, and they're gonna say more words than me in general, no matter how confident I am because that's their process. They think out loud most of the time. And it's just it's it's really understanding all of that and helping people understand that too. It's like, hey. You know what? I'm gonna share my ideas, but I'm gonna think through them carefully. You know? And that's what's good about me. So yeah. So let's talk a little bit more about getting out of your comfort zone.

David Hall [00:25:12]:
What what's your take on that? How do you do that?

Nicole Kepic [00:25:15]:
Yeah. Honestly, I just I try not I don't know. I've got 2 takes on it, basically. So on the one hand, like I said, I feel like you should step out of your comfort zone a bit because if you don't, like I said, you'll be stuck. And you're never gonna experience that joy of, wow. I just tried something different. I liked it. I was good at it.

Nicole Kepic [00:25:35]:
I'm gonna do this again. You're never gonna experience that if you don't, you know, try to step out of your comfort zone. But then on the other hand, I think if some if your gut is really telling you, like, you will not enjoy this, and it's so far removed from your natural inherent gifts, so far removed from your introversion, then it's okay to say no. It's okay to say, you know what? This isn't for me. Life's too short to do things that you hate. So so, yeah, I've got 2 different opposing views on that, and it's it's kind of like finding, you know, the in between, the stretch limit. But, yeah, stretch a bit, but not so much where you're like, this is not for me. Why am I doing this? I'm pretending to be somebody I'm not.

Nicole Kepic [00:26:17]:
So

David Hall [00:26:18]:
Oh, I don't think those are opposing at all. I love that. Because there are things that's like, yeah, that's not for me and that's okay to say. But there's things that you're having scary thoughts about and you can do that thing and you just have to challenge those thoughts so you don't have to get out of your comfort zone the next time. So you're like, you know what? I did that. It was great, and I can do that again. Maybe, you know, we're very reflective as introverts. We can think, how do I you know, how would I do that next time? But we're really changing our comfort zone.

David Hall [00:26:48]:
Right? But I I I love that. There's things that yeah. That's not for me. That's a good way to put it.

Nicole Kepic [00:26:54]:
Well, thank you. I think it's also recognizing impostor syndrome too. So sometimes an idea will come to me, like, say, the first time I got invited to a podcast interview a few years ago, my instant thought was, no. This is scary. I don't wanna do this. That was my instant thought. And then at the time, I had I was working with a business coach. I think it was the first coach I was working with, and she had this expression of, like, always think of future you.

Nicole Kepic [00:27:19]:
What would future you do? What would future you say? And future you was, you know, the person that was thriving and confident and, you know, just, like, really excelling at business. And I remember thinking, what would future Nicole do? And I was, again, kinda mildly annoyed. Like, why do I have to think of future Nicole? Like, current Nicole does not want to do this. And then I thought, okay. Future Nicole would say yes. She would say yes. So even though I was like, I hate the sound of my voice. What if I don't have anything interesting to say? I said yes to that podcast interview, and it was it was easy.

Nicole Kepic [00:27:53]:
It was fun. I enjoyed it. And since then, I've done more podcast interviews. So had I said no to that podcast interview, who knows? Maybe I wouldn't have you know, we might not be talking right now because I would have let imposter syndrome get in the way.

David Hall [00:28:07]:
Yeah. Yeah. It's that's that's great. I have a similar story. You know? My very first podcast, don't go back and watch that, but it was a really good experience. It was just like, wow. I do enjoy this. And then, you know, soon after I started my own, I'm like, yeah.

David Hall [00:28:23]:
This is something I can do as well. And I I'm really I enjoy sharing ideas, also having great conversations. And, yeah, that that was coming from, you know, stepping out a little bit, but changing. You know? So the next time you know, I I definitely I don't get nervous anymore. It's really great, you know. Whether it's a podcast or a speech, it's for the most part, you know. I just know how I need to prepare, and I know, you know, I gotta manage my energy a little bit, and then I don't get nervous, which is a lot different from, you know, my previous younger self.

Nicole Kepic [00:29:00]:
Yeah. That's amazing. And you've probably met such interesting people along the way. And if for whatever reason it stops working for you, you can always shut it down. Like, you don't have to be tied to a decision forever. So, yeah, that's great.

David Hall [00:29:14]:
Yeah. No. Interest yeah. Definitely. It's been a lot of fun and, no plans to stop. Yeah. So we also bust myths on this show, and I know you have one to bust for us. So do you think introverts are boring?

Nicole Kepic [00:29:28]:
Oh, yes. I no. The answer is no. Yes is not the answer. Introverts are not boring. Let me be clear. I get so bothered by that when people say, oh, introverts are boring. Not that anyone has said that to my face, but I feel like that is the going, you know, thoughts out there.

Nicole Kepic [00:29:44]:
I I think that one just really hit home with me because that was a big miss that I believed, especially, like I said, when I quit corporate, hopped on Instagram, and started advertising my business. I thought, oh my gosh. I'm not gonna stand out because I'm boring. I'm not exciting. I'm, you know, I'm just I'm just Nicole, the copywriter, and, you know, I worry that it would hold me back compared to other people who are more out there and bolder. But, yeah, I mean, introverts to me are very interesting, great conversationalist, funny, humorous, witty, all the things. So, yes, I will I will put a stake in the ground forever and say introverts are not boring. Most of the time, it's just us thinking we're boring when we're not.

David Hall [00:30:29]:
Yeah. And I promise it's not boring in our heads. I promise you that. Generally, we have some great imaginations. But, yeah, it's, and that's the other thing. It's like everybody has their own idea of what's fun. Right? And that's the thing is you need to not let people tell you what you think is fun. You know, you need to do those things that you wanna do and and enjoy whatever it is.

David Hall [00:30:53]:
You know? And I'm sure everybody and there's a wide range of what people like, but sometimes we get, you know, this is what's fun. This is what you need to enjoy, and it's just not the case. Right?

Nicole Kepic [00:31:06]:
Yeah. That could be very judgy. Right? We shouldn't decide what's fun for other people.

David Hall [00:31:11]:
Yeah. So how do you bring how do you bring that into your work as a copywriter? You know, how do you put that fun and playfulness personality into your copy, helping other people do that again, being authentic?

Nicole Kepic [00:31:27]:
Yeah. Well, that's a good question because that's a big struggle with a lot of my clients. They come to me, and one of their struggles is I feel like my copy is boring. It's just kind of blah. Like, I feel like I'm an interesting person or I have these all all these interesting ideas, but then when I sit down to write, it just comes out very corporate or very just dry, I guess. Right? And so they often struggle to infuse personality into their copy. And so there's so many different ways you can do that. Probably the biggest way is just writing really conversationally.

Nicole Kepic [00:31:57]:
So, you know, you're writing as you would speak as a human, not a robot, not, you know, super corporate y, super jargony. You're just writing as a person as if you were talking to a friend. So that's probably the biggest thing. And then, you know, inserting humor and it doesn't have to be, like, roll on the ground laughing kind of humor. It can just be, like, you know, slices of life that make your readers nod along and smile and be like, oh, yeah. That is so me. I hate it when that happens or, you know, I've been there, done that. So just, you know, incorporating some humor, conversationalism, using words that you would use in everyday life, using words that your readers would use, injecting those.

Nicole Kepic [00:32:36]:
So, again, it just comes across as more human.

David Hall [00:32:40]:
Yeah. What would you say is the biggest challenge that your clients have when they're doing their writing?

Nicole Kepic [00:32:46]:
Yeah. I mean, my clients usually come to me. It's it it it boils down to 3 things. They either don't have the time, the desire, or the expertise to write their copy. So time you know, they're established business owners. They're busy. Some of them are even great writers. I've written for authors before, which made me a bit nervous, but I'm like, Okay.

Nicole Kepic [00:33:07]:
They just don't have the time. Then there's other people who don't have the desire. They hate copywriting, like I hate folding laundry. They would rather do anything else than write their own copy. And then the expertise, that's a big one. So a lot of clients will say, like, I just don't know how to sell. Selling is a big one. They don't know how to approach that because, obviously, we're all here running businesses, not hobbies.

Nicole Kepic [00:33:29]:
So they want their words to sell in a way that's not overly sales y. So that's the biggest one I would say because, I mean, it's hard. Your copy has to do so many things for you. It has to engage your readers. It has to entertain them. It has to inspire them, empower them, and it has to build urgency too so that they they decide, okay. I wanna take that next step and buy the thing instead of, yeah, maybe maybe later. I'll just hold off for now.

Nicole Kepic [00:33:57]:
So, yeah, your coffee has some big work to do.

David Hall [00:34:00]:
Yeah. And tell us about selling. Like, what is your view on selling? You know, you talk about selling with empathy and authority versus pressure and fear.

Nicole Kepic [00:34:12]:
Yeah. I am not a fan. Like, I don't who's really a fan of copy that sells with pressure and fear, you know, who's carrying out.

David Hall [00:34:18]:
I'm not.

Nicole Kepic [00:34:19]:
Like, I don't know anybody who is. I think some people just do it unknowingly. They come across too strong in their copy. They don't even realize they're doing it. But, yeah, I mean, empathy is really just, you know, relating to your readers, relating to their current situation, like, where they are now, what they're struggling with, what they really want, and what's standing in their way. And most of all, how is that making them feel? So, you know, are they feeling like I'm so behind? I just can't get ahead. I wish I could be further ahead. Like, all those things you're empathizing with, and then only then are you presenting your solution as a way for them to, you know, get to where they wanna be.

Nicole Kepic [00:34:57]:
So you're not gonna go in right away and say, hey. I have this thing. Buy it. Buy it now. You're first gonna appeal to your readers, empathize with your readers, and then offer your solution. And then, of course, go into more detail of how how your solution can help and how it will make them feel like you go into more detail. But first, empathize, then introduce your solution. And then the authority piece comes in because, you know, it's one thing to empathize with your readers and say, hey.

Nicole Kepic [00:35:23]:
I know how you're feeling. I get it. But then at a certain point, they'll think, okay. You get me. You understand me, but can you help me? Do you have the experience, the expertise to help me? Because everything I've done before has not worked. I need a professional to come in and support me. So that's when, you know, you talk about your experience, your credentials, maybe case studies with other clients. But, you know, you're assuring them that you have what it takes to help them get to where they haven't been able to get on their own.

David Hall [00:35:53]:
Yeah. And you've definitely talked about, you know, yourself and struggles that you've had with marketing or being on social media. What what advice do you have for the introvert business owner in social media?

Nicole Kepic [00:36:09]:
Yeah. I mean, really simple advice of choose what you enjoy. If you hate something, like, if you hate the idea of going on lives on Instagram, I don't know. My advice is just don't do it. There are so many other ways that you can market your business because if you hate it, you're not gonna do it. You're not gonna feel, you know, the most like you. So, yeah, I would just say be choosy about which marketing activities, of course, work, but work for your personality too. So for me, yes, I'm on Instagram, social media.

Nicole Kepic [00:36:40]:
So I, you know, I have a presence there. I enjoy certain aspects of it. But for me, email has the biggest been the biggest driver of my business. And, you know, I really enjoy it because it feels like a one to one conversation. Even though I'm sending an email out, it's going to more than one person. I'm writing it as if it's just to one other person. And I've been able to build the community there of people who are so supportive, who reply to my emails and are saying, oh, I can't wait for your book. And, you know, it just feels it feels really close knit even though, you know, it's not just 1 or 2 people on my list, but it feels that way because of just the relationship we've built.

David Hall [00:37:18]:
Yeah. And in all of in all of this copywriting, what role does storytelling play? Like, how can we be great storytellers?

Nicole Kepic [00:37:30]:
Oh, yes. I mean, I could say so much about storytelling and marketing. I mean, I'm a big fan of it for so many reasons. In terms of sales copy, storytelling is good because, again, you're not just jumping in and saying, hey. I have this thing. Buy it. You're you have a lead in. You're introducing a story first, a character, a setting, a plot, and then you're going into the thing.

Nicole Kepic [00:37:51]:
So it's kind of serving the purpose of a lead in. Stories, to me, probably the biggest thing is that stories make you more memorable. So, you know, I don't I know there's science behind it. I don't ask me to quote the science behind it, but, really, like, stories just have such sticking power. So people are more apt to remember you, remember your services. And so the next time that they need a service that you provide, you are gonna be top of mind. And then, you know, other things too. Stories make people feel like they know you more.

Nicole Kepic [00:38:23]:
They trust you more. And, again, when it comes time for purchasing, not that you're telling a story just for that reason, but they will feel like they know you better and trust you more. And so when they're ready to purchase, they may come to you. So, I mean, the other thing I could say too is that stories are you know, they make you more ownable, if that's the right word. The way to describe it is when I was writing my book, I remember thinking, okay. I wanna deliver lots of, you know, practical advice, some how to's, marketing, copywriting, pricing, selling, all those things. But a lot of that stuff can be goo Googled. Right? Like, a lot of it can be found online.

Nicole Kepic [00:39:01]:
So I wanted to inject lots of stories so that nobody else could write the same book that I wrote. Like, yes, my perspective would be different no matter what, but those stories especially would make it ownable and unique to me. Nobody else would have the same childhood stories or business stories or life stories that I did. So by very virtue of that, my book would be different from somebody else's, which was kind of my goal. I didn't want it to be just, like, all about Nicole. I want it to be more about my readers, but I still wanted to infuse some stories here and there so it would be more specific to me.

David Hall [00:39:35]:
Yeah. Absolutely. And, I mean, we're built on stories as human beings. You know, we resonate with stories. You know? That great movie that you love, it's it's a story. You know? And it's it's very important. But I think sometimes that gets lost, and that's important for introverts to remember is they have great stories to tell. And no matter what you're doing, whether it's marketing or copywriting that you need to infuse your story, just like you said, you know, into your work.

Nicole Kepic [00:40:03]:
Yeah. And that's another thing too. People will often think, well, I don't have these big epic stories. And I'll often say, you know, especially for email, it doesn't it doesn't have to be that way. You can have a story about your experience going through the Starbucks drive through this morning or, like, something so simple. And when I think of some of my, I don't wanna say best emails, but emails that were most well received or had the most replies, the stories were just so simple, like, such simple slices of life, like a story at my hairdressers or a story with my grandpa, like the simplest things that are not, like, wild and crazy adventures, but they just resonate because they're more relatable. They're more human. So don't hold back on stories thinking you need this big epic story.

Nicole Kepic [00:40:45]:
You can just use these tiny slices of life.

David Hall [00:40:48]:
Yeah. That's such a great point. So Nicole, we've talked about the strengths of introverts, some needs of introverts. We busted a couple of myths, you know. And definitely, you've talked about your strategies for success, especially in copywriting, you know, how you've leaned into your introverted gifts. Another big thing is that, you know, we do need some alone time as introverts. And I don't like the definition when people say that's all that it is, you know, and it's people like, oh, introvert. It's how you get your energy.

David Hall [00:41:21]:
You know? I'm like, yes. That's part of it. But also, like, we've been talking about, there's also great strengths and we don't wanna discount those. You know? We have these great strengths, but with those strengths come some needs. You know? We do need some time alone and it's not just about recharging. Recharging is very important. Like, you know what? I probably will take a little break after we're done here. I've really enjoyed it, but I'm probably gonna take a little break.

David Hall [00:41:46]:
But we also need time to do lots of things, you know, to create, to think, to to do some planning. How have you learned to get your alone time and also recharge when you need to as an introvert?

Nicole Kepic [00:42:00]:
Yeah. That's a great question. Yeah. Definitely having pockets of alone time for sure. I recently had a guest over for the weekend, and he stayed from Saturday morning to Monday morning. And it was full on entertaining, and I just felt like, yeah, that really that was painful because I couldn't escape even just for 10 minutes to just to read. That's all I wanted to do is to escape for 10 minutes. So yeah.

Nicole Kepic [00:42:23]:
So it's inserting those pockets of time in my schedule. Again, as like I said before, as the CEO of your business, you are in charge of your schedule. So, yeah, just making sure you have the time to recharge when you need it. For me, that also looks like only booking client calls on certain days versus having them every day, you know, and feeling like, oh, I've got calls every day. So I will usually block them on certain days, or I'll have a maximum number of calls per day so that it's not like, oh, I've opened up my calendar, and I have 10 calls today. Like, that would just be exhausting. And then even like I said, just being picky about clients, and I don't say that to be exclusive or anything, but if I get the sense that a client is going to suck my soul and my energy, then I will say no to that client because, you know, I want somebody who's kinda gonna fuel me versus drain all of my energy. So little things like that.

Nicole Kepic [00:43:18]:
And then even back end systems in my business, like, instead of doing everything manually be like I used to do before, like, sending, you know, manual onboarding emails or invoicing emails. Like, now I use Dubsado. So I will write those emails in advance, and everything's kind of automated. So things like that help too. So it allows me to spend more of my time elsewhere versus crafting those. So, yeah, just, like, little tactical things, but they can really help.

David Hall [00:43:46]:
Awesome. This has been a great conversation, Nicole. I've really enjoyed it. Is there anything else you wanna add?

Nicole Kepic [00:43:52]:
No. In terms of introversion, I guess the only thing I would add that we've kinda touched on already is, you know, to try not to envy extrovert so much. I mean, I love extroverts. I just wanna put that on record that I love extrovert. I have lots of extrovert friends and, you know, some family members. And but I think I personally spent too much time and energy in the past thinking, oh, life would be easier if I was an extrovert or people would like me more if I was an extrovert. Like, I wasted so much time thinking that when really, you know, I should have been embrace been embracing my introverted quality so much sooner. So and who knows? Maybe extroverts think the same way about introvert sometimes.

Nicole Kepic [00:44:32]:
Like, oh, I really like her calm nature or something. So I think, again, it's just, you know, recognizing the gifts that we each have, understanding that we each have different gifts, and really appreciating those gifts.

David Hall [00:44:43]:
Yeah. Well said. Where can people find out more about you, your book, and the work that you do? Well, they can

Nicole Kepic [00:44:49]:
go to my website, nicolekepich.com. So I will share the links with you, but, yeah, that's my first and last name. And then on Instagram, I'm at n k copywriting, also back on LinkedIn. And, yeah, I mean, as we're conducting this interview or this this conversation, my book is not yet out in the world, but it will be by the time this airs. So I will share that link too.

David Hall [00:45:10]:
Yeah. Looking forward to checking it out.

Nicole Kepic [00:45:13]:
Thank you.

David Hall [00:45:14]:
Alright. Thank you.

Nicole Kepic [00:45:15]:
It's not just my mom reading it.

David Hall [00:45:16]:
Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Thanks again, Nicole.

Nicole Kepic [00:45:19]:
Thanks so much.

David Hall [00:45:20]:
Thank you so much for joining me. I appreciate you. I hope you take the time to explore other episodes and learn from other amazing guests. Remember, if you're interested in getting to know yourself better, there is now free Typefinder personality assessment on the Quiet and Strong website. This free assessment will give you a brief report, including the four letter Myers Briggs code. I'll add a link in the show notes. And I'd love to connect with you. Reach out at david@quiet and strong.com or check out the quietandstrong.com website, which includes blog posts and links to social media for Quiet and Strong and much more.

David Hall [00:45:57]:
Send me topics or guests you would like to see on the show. So many great things about being an introvert, and so we need those to be understood. Get to know your introverted strengths and needs, and be strong.