Ep 219 - Introversion and Extroversion: Navigating Differences for Success with guest Jennifer Kahnweiler

Have you ever wondered how introversion and extroversion impact our interactions and leadership styles? 

Tune into this episode of The Quiet And Strong Podcast with your host David Hall and special guest Jennifer Kahnweiler, a leading expert on introverts in the workplace and a best-selling author. In this engaging conversation, you'll gain insights into the strengths and challenges faced by both introverts and extroverts, and learn how these differences can be navigated successfully.

Whether you're an introvert, extrovert, or somewhere in between, this episode is packed with valuable knowledge to help you embrace and leverage your natural strengths, enrich your relationships, and build effective, harmonious teams. Listen in, and be strong.

Episode Link: QuietandStrong.com/219

Jennifer B. Kahnweiler is a bestselling author, podcast host and one of the leading experts on introverts at work. Her pioneering books, The Introverted Leader, Quiet Influence, The Genius of Opposites, and Creating Introvert-Friendly Workplaces have been translated into 18 languages. The Introverted Leader was named one of the top 5 business books by The Shanghai Daily. Jennifer has partnered with leading organizations like NASA, Amazon, Merck, Kimberly Clark, Bosch, and the U.S. Centers for Disease Control. She holds the Certified Speaking Professional designation, awarded to a small percentage of speakers, and serves as a mentor to many professional women. Jennifer loves yoga, pickleball, making up stories with her granddaughters and playing Jeopardy with her introverted husband, Bill.

Connect with Jennifer:

Website: JenniferKahnweiler.com

Listen to Jennifer's Podcast: The Introvert Ally podcast

Get Jennifer's Latest book: The Introverted Leader, 3rd edition

Socials: LinkedIn | Youtube | Instagram | Facebook

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Contact the Host of the Quiet and Strong Podcast:

David Hall

Author, Speaker, Educator, Podcaster

quietandstrong.com
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david [at] quietandstrong.com

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Transcript

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:00:00]:
Folks who are introverted in the room always would kind of be sort of shut down, David. Like, feeling, you know, I something's wrong with me. And I kept getting that message over and over again. So that's sort of how I was led. I think I was really actually somebody said a calling. You know? I think I was led into this work. And I because I started when I started sharing and maybe giving some of the assessments and talking about introversion and extroversion, I got tremendous response. People were like, woah.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:00:28]:
This is really explaining things, and I feel more relieved now.

David Hall [00:00:39]:
Hello, and welcome to episode two nineteen of the Quiet and Strong podcast especially for introverts. I'm your host, David Hall. I'm the creator of quietandstrong.com. This is a weekly podcast dedicated to understanding the strengths and needs of introverts along with strategies for success. Introversion is not something to fix, but to be embraced. Normally, we'll reach episode on a Monday morning. Be sure to subscribe on your favorite platform. Leave a review or a rating.

David Hall [00:01:05]:
That will mean a lot to me and also help others find the show. Tell a friend about the podcast and help get the word out there that introversion is a beautiful thing. Jennifer Kahnweiler is a best selling author, podcast host, and one of the leading experts on introverts at work. Her pioneering books, the introverted leader, quiet influence, the genius of opposites, and creating introvert friendly workplaces have been translated into 18 languages. The introverted leader was named one of the top five business books by the Shanghai Daily. Jennifer has partnered with leading organizations like NASA, Amazon, Merck, Kimberly Clark, Bosch, and the US Centers for Disease Control. She holds a certified speaking professional designation awarded to a small percentage of speakers and serves as a mentor to many professional women. Jennifer loves yoga, pickleball, making up stories with her granddaughters, and playing jeopardy with her introverted husband, Bill.

David Hall [00:02:04]:
Alright. Well, welcome to the Quiet and Strong podcast, Jennifer. Jennifer, it's so good to have you on today.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:02:09]:
David, I always love to talk to quiet and strong people like yourself. Thank you for the work you do. It's incredible.

David Hall [00:02:16]:
Yeah. And, I've been following your work for quite some time. I started blogging in 02/2014. I was really probably embracing my own introversion probably the prior five years before that. And one of the books I read was your introverted leader, which was really helpful to me, so thank you for that.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:02:34]:
Oh, I appreciate that. I always love to hear from, people that, you know, found it helpful.

David Hall [00:02:38]:
So thank you. It's going into the third edition, and we're gonna get into that today. So I'm excited to talk more about that. But first, tell us a little bit about yourself and your journey, your journey as an extrovert to being a introvert champion and advocate? How did all this come about?

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:02:54]:
It's it's a typical and very insightful question where people always assume. It's funny that I'm I'm introverted, and I'm I guess I have a little more acceptance now. People aren't don't raise their eyebrows as much because we have a whole movement of, David, of allies now, you know, for people that are misrepresented or misunderstood. And so that's that's cool. I, you know, I I consider myself an ally and always have. I started out in a very, I would say, mostly extroverted family except for one family member. So I kinda thought that was the way the world was. And then time went on, and I met my boyfriend then to become husband who was extremely introverted.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:03:33]:
I didn't have a word for that, but I knew that we kind of were at yin and yang. Like like a lot of, I guess, partners are, they somehow intuitively know they need that balance. And, you know, that calmness, that quiet I met Bill and, you know, and I, you know, I would just ask questions and listen, and then I realized, as we were moving into our relationship and then got married, that I was still a little perplexed about why he would, kinda go off on his own a lot, you know, after we were together or with people. I was like, is it me, or what's going on here? And I was very I was fortuitous because I, at that time, I had been career wise, been in a direction of counseling and working in that kind of a helping professions, if you will, in education and worked in higher ed for a while and had a number of different iterations of that. I've always been sort of, like, looking for people to support in any way I can that morphed into coaching and then leadership development. But at that point, I was introduced to the, Myers Briggs, which, you know, back in what was it? Seventies, eighties? It wasn't really a very popular instrument. I mean, we know a little bit about it, but it was kind of like when I read that book, by Daniel Goleman, you know, emotional intelligence. It it was like when I learned about personality types, I was like, woah.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:04:54]:
You know, this really puts into words or helps me understand, you know, what's been go what's my confusion has been about. And so I use that tool all the time, and I learned as much as I could about it. And, of course, I had my guinea pig at home, my husband, Bill, who I always laugh. At that time, he was actually listening to me. And he was like, he was interested when I would come home, and he so identified with the descriptions that I would share with him. And he took I had him take the assessment too in my learning journey with all this personality stuff. You know? And he, he's he absolutely 100% identified as more introverted. And it explained for him a lot of the kind of disconnects he had felt growing up growing up in a very extroverted environment with many expectations around being social and, you know, hanging out with people all the time.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:05:47]:
And he, you know, didn't ever wanted to do that, so he thought something was wrong. And I found that with a lot of my clients early on that, you know, I would do career coaching or or training with them. And the folks who were introverted in the room always would kind of be sort of shut down, David, like, feeling, you know, I something's wrong with me. And I kept getting that message over and over again. So that's sort of how I was led. I think I was really actually somebody said a calling. You know? I think I was led into this work. And I because I started when I started sharing and maybe giving some of the assessments and talking about introversion and extroversion, I got tremendous response.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:06:25]:
People were like, woah. This is really explaining things, and I feel more relieved now. And so that kind of snowballed into, you know, larger stages and platforms where I where I would, you know, work with many different, you know, high level leaders, also people throughout organizations, trying to understand how to work better on teams, how to understand their managers better. It was my focus was, you know, shifted to more the workplace. I guess it's always been there, but I was able to, you know, use that knowledge. And I found people, like I said, very responsive, and I started to look for more tools. Like, you were mentioning you read the book, and it's like, where you know, how can I help them apply some of this? And there really wasn't anything at that time that was, you know, back in when was it? Maybe around 02/2007, '2 thousand '8, where still we didn't have much at all. So, you know, when you wanna book you, they always say you you can't find it.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:07:23]:
You should write it. That's how I started leader. Yeah. That was the first one.

David Hall [00:07:29]:
So a few different things on on all of that. So you had Bill on your podcast, introvert ally. I loved it. And that's the kind of thing that's really powerful is when you do the contrast. When you say, here's a introvert, here's a extrovert. Maybe you are married or in a relationship or maybe your work partners. I've had both contrast on the show. It's so powerful to say, hey.

David Hall [00:07:53]:
Both are successful. Both can get along, but you have to understand these differences. So it was very powerful when you had Bill on the show, you know, with that contrast.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:08:03]:
Well, yeah. Yeah. I get that's usually the highest rated shows we do every season. And this year, I was thinking of not doing it, but now you've convinced me. I better I better get him back on. He has to do some work on the on the podcast because he has to listen to all of that. But he doesn't mind doing that. I I yeah.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:08:19]:
And I was gonna say that humor is is really what also is important, don't you think, in in those partnerships?

David Hall [00:08:25]:
Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And so early on, you know, you're married. Are you are you putting how did it take a while to develop that understanding of your different personalities?

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:08:39]:
Yeah. If people could see me now on video, you probably saw me raise my raise my eyes. Yeah. I think, you know, the main the main word that I had to work on, and I think Bill did too, is judgment. Because it's really ingrained in us that something is wrong. Like, if somebody doesn't answer you back when you ask them a question, like, what the heck? You know? And then when I'm going off, you know, think talking as intro extroverts do, you know, we think aloud. So, you know, and I'm needing him to listen, and he kinda can get overwhelmed. We're like, what is going on? So you do if you don't have that understanding, it's very tough.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:09:19]:
And it took a while. Yeah. And it's still hard sometimes. I mean, he a lot of times, talk about humor. He'll hold up one of my books and say, read the book.

David Hall [00:09:29]:
And, you know, and what you said earlier is people think something's wrong with them. You know, that was me. Sounds like that was your husband. So many of my guests that have come to embrace their introversion say the same thing. One nice thing is my wife is a fellow introvert, but she never felt like something was wrong. She always understood her strengths and her gifts, and she's been a very confident person her entire life. And so that was nice to see that contrast. Like, not everybody thinks something is wrong.

David Hall [00:09:58]:
But those that do, it's when you don't understand communication is a huge one that you were just mentioning. Like, alright. You're thinking out loud, putting everything together in my mind and sharing what's most important, you know, what I think you you think is gonna be most important. And if you don't understand what's going on in each mind, you know, there could be some conflicts and misunderstanding and, like you said, judgment. You know, there could be some, like, what's wrong with that person? Why are they like that? Or why am I feeling like this?

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:10:24]:
Well, you said a very interesting thing. Your your wife and I about her being embracing her strengths. And I think that really has relevance for for the way we raise children, the way we teach children today. Because many of the people I met, even in their early twenties, already had discounted themselves. And they would get the results back on their assessments and go, oh, darn. I so wanted to be an extrovert. You know? It because part of it's misunderstanding. But I think if you have these messages ingrained in you in these various environments that it's not cool to be quiet and to take embrace silence, you know, to recharge, if that is not accepted, that really is seen as something is wrong with you.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:11:12]:
So I'm, you know, I'm really pleased that you had that possible role model, right, or a possible way to be. And I think if we can eat whether we're extrovert or introverted, except our the young people in our lives.

David Hall [00:11:26]:
Yeah. And that was another big epiphany for me. So my wife's introverted. We have three kids, two extroverts, one introvert. Raised them the same. These gifts just come naturally.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:11:38]:
They really do. And and probably you probably worked on it with your kids explaining a little bit about. Right?

David Hall [00:11:44]:
Yeah. They know more than they want to, probably.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:11:48]:
Oh, I have oh, it's a funny thing about that. You know, Bill and I were both came from the counseling background. One time, we had one of those charts up on the wall. You know, in dinner, we'd say, well, tell us how you feel. You know, I point to the expression. Because we did have that in common. We wanted the kids to express themselves. And one night, we came in I came into the kitchen for dinner, and the chart was nowhere to be found.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:12:11]:
They didn't they didn't wanna deal with that. So you know what? When you're really steeped in this stuff, the kids, could they'd really are want nothing to do with it. But we get it to them in another way.

David Hall [00:12:21]:
Yeah. It was it was cute, though, when my daughter was little, my extroverted daughter. She would, you know, she would hear the converse conversations I was having, you know, about my blog posts and podcast later. And on her little chalkboard, she made a meme. It said introverts are awesome. You know? And it was just like she was she was listening. You know?

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:12:40]:
Oh, that's so cool. Yeah. Really cool.

David Hall [00:12:45]:
So when did you make the move from doing your work, like, in counseling and other things to being an author and a speaker on these topics?

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:12:54]:
Well, I think, you know, as I mentioned, that it was sort of like a critical mass. Like, I kept see hearing you know, I'd be in a class, let's say, teaching. I started to do more workshops with organizations. I was involved for a couple of years in in outplacement for maybe a period of about a decade where, you know, peep big career transitions in companies. So I really got to know people in those classes. And then I'm I shifted into working more corporate. I worked at places like GE where I would be responsible for helping develop some change management leadership development programs. So we'd be in those back in those days, we'd be getting to know students, you know, like spending five days with them at a retreat center.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:13:31]:
Gone are those days now, but we would we would really have a chance to help people understand themselves. That was a big part of those classes, like their strengths, their liabilities, how they can leverage those. And it was very powerful work, but I also found in those in those opportunities to work with people that they really did not engage as much as the people that were more extroverted. You know? And so that kind of shifted. That's where I saw. It's like, I need to kinda figure out some kind of a process or, you know, to put this into a a doable sort of model that people could follow. I was working a lot in technology at that time. And, you know, I I knew of I don't know a lot about I always laugh.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:14:16]:
I was very fascinated by IT people. Funny thing is they were very funny. Like, they were they were they had great senses of humor and very creative, but they also know that they like to know, okay. So if I'm gonna communicate with this person, what what are some steps I need to take, Jennifer? You know? So I started to think more in terms the way they did with models. And I actually was pushed as I was writing my my first book, which I did. I I pitched to, Barrett Kohler, which has been my partner for all of my books with to Steve Prasante, who is the, the CEO and the editor. And he he I was really fortunate. I mean, he I say he changed my life because my manuscript fell on his desk, and he get he had, like, a thousand proposals a year.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:14:58]:
But he started he was reading of it, and he said, I think I'm an introvert. You know? He started to identify that. But he really pushed me to, when I was writing, to think in terms of a model. And that four piece model, which, you know, you're probably familiar with the prepare, presence, push, and practice came from the words of introverts who told me this is how they succeeded. This is what they did. They used what their strengths were and, you know, and and applied that to different areas of emerging leadership on how they could be successful. And so we he pushed me to do this, and I was like, oh, really, Steve? I have to do this for the whole chapter. That turned out to be the best advice.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:15:36]:
That's why you have an editor. Yeah. That's for sure. You know? They push you, and he he said, this is gonna make it doable. And, you know, at that time, I was fortunate enough to come into this field at the at the very beginning, you know, of of where people were where you it was getting into what I call the zeitgeist. I don't call it the German word, but, you know, people were starting to understand it more outside of the coaching rooms. You know? And Susan Cain, I was introduced to when she when while she was writing her book Quiet, which, as you know, became the linchpin in this whole movement. I mean, she she just changed so many lives.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:16:16]:
But the the nice thing was I come from a very practical sort of standpoint, you know, with, like, take these steps. I've always been like that with all of my coaching and my work. And so we actually partnered together. She shared my work, and I I was really pleased about that because people would get so interested and engaged and self identify and process these ideas about the extrovert ideal. And it's like, hey. You know, they would sit up in their chairs and be more confident. But then they wanted to know, okay. I go back into my workplace on Monday.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:16:52]:
How do I deal with my extroverted boss? Right? So then I started that's what that my book was helpful helpful with. And then what would happen was I would, you know, get feedback on the book, and the book really did get a lot of you know, it sold a lot of copies, which I was really happy about, of course. But the readers would then tell me what else they wanted to learn. So that's how we emerged in writing, you know, three additional books after that.

David Hall [00:17:21]:
Yeah. So we're gonna talk more about your first book, but let's talk about the other three. But I think they really summarize your work and and the topics of of that you address with introversion. So, you know, your second one was Quiet Influence. Correct? Tell us a little bit about that and your your message of that book.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:17:40]:
You're testing my memory here, but I'm

David Hall [00:17:42]:
I'm Yeah.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:17:43]:
Let's do it. I've got it right here by me.

David Hall [00:17:45]:
Yes. Yeah. Good.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:17:47]:
It's called the introvert's quiet influence, the introvert's guide to making a difference. And, you know, when we think of leadership, it's a very broad term. You know, we lead in all different ways, but many of the people in my clients and readers didn't really self identify as leaders. They said, you know what? I need to get this project approved. I need to create change. I need to provoke new ideas and let peep get people to hear them, you know, in my organization. And a lot of that is around influencing without authority. Right? So quiet influence is how do you do it in a way that's not pushing your ideas forward, that's not the loudest voice in the room? And I knew I had been working with people my whole career who, and you will hear this from a lot of people, the best influencers were the quieter ones.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:18:37]:
One example, you'd be in a meeting, and everybody's blabbing away about, you know, a change that's gonna happen. Here's what we should do. Blah blah blah. And all the extroverts are just like, cackling geese, we used to say. Right? And then you have the image of the the great blue heron who swoops down. Right? And and kinda summarizes very in a very articulate way what's been said, but then comes up with that idea that nails it. I'm snapping my fingers on the microphone. You know? And so what was it that they were doing? So I did and for all of my books, David, as you may know, I I do research.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:19:11]:
I and my research is very qual is qualitative. So I talk to people, and I do surveys. And we had a lot of responses to these questions around how do you make a difference, and how are you successful doing that. So we found that it boiled down to six key strengths that introverts have that they use. Of course, they have tons of strengths, but you know? And and that was what we did the way I structured the book, was each each chapter in quiet influence focuses on one of the strengths. For instance, one of the top ones was taking quiet time. So what do you do in that quiet time to kinda get yourself focused, to kinda figure out what your strategy is gonna be? You know? Another one is, of course, listening, embracing listening, engage listening. So before people would necessarily push an idea or a project or a proposal, they spoke to a lot of different individuals beforehand.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:20:08]:
You know? They did the research, the careful analytical thinking. They kept it moving. They had focused conversations trying to explain their point of view with their stakeholders, but then they would end up, you know, really with a rich proposal because they had talked with everybody. So all of these examples, I used a lot of case studies in there and tried to make it palatable. And I think kind of the cool thing about that book is also we looked at what happens when you overuse a strength. Because it's not all great, right, with every strength. So for instance, if you're in silence too much, how is that a negative? How do people see you? Are you in your head too much so then you're never speaking up and you're trying to make that idea perfect? So it was just some caveats or warning warning signs. And I would say the same thing to extroverts.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:20:55]:
What what are some strengths you have, but any overuse of a strength is a weakness?

David Hall [00:21:00]:
Yeah. It's such a good example of the meeting. And extroverts generally think out loud. You know? And introverts are processing and sharing what they think is most important. But everybody needs to understand that difference. And, you know, as the introvert, you need to understand, hey. I've got something important to say. You know, your first p was preparation.

David Hall [00:21:24]:
That's so key. You know? I gotta prepare ahead of time, make sure that I make the point or ask the questions that I need to. But also people need to understand, hey. That person is gonna need some time to process, hopefully, ahead of time. But it needs to you need to have your self awareness, but then people need to understand everybody else's personalities too.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:21:46]:
Yes. Absolutely. And that's not that's the ideal, isn't it? That's the ideal. But I'm sure you've had I know you've had a lot of very successful introverts on your show. And one of the things that they've also talked about is how they've managed through that by not being trying to make their, let's say, their input perfect. You know? So, like, I remember Pat Waters, who you may be familiar with in HR. Did you have Pat on the show yet? I mean okay. We need to get her on.

David Hall [00:22:13]:
Okay.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:22:15]:
Pat, I'm happy to make an intro. Yeah. Because Pat always shares golden information, and and she actually has on her bio, I am an introverted leader, you know, which is so cool. But Pat, like, talks about, like, having thinking things in her head maybe two or three times, and she's not gonna keep it in there. She has to push herself. That's the push to say it and not worry about, you know, what people think or if it's not perfectly formed. Because perception is reality. If we're never sharing out loud in a in a group of extroverts, it's, you know, it's gonna hurt us

David Hall [00:22:49]:
in the in

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:22:50]:
So but there are other strategies too for doing that so you can be more comfortable. You mentioned the main one, which is preparation.

David Hall [00:22:57]:
Yeah. For sure. Yeah. Alright. And then how about your next book, Genius of Opposites? Tell us about

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:23:02]:
that one. Love the cover on that one. That was my favorite cover. Yeah.

David Hall [00:23:06]:
Very cool.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:23:07]:
Anyone could see it's like it has genius of opposite. It's upside down. And this is really the idea that we're better together, like you said earlier on at the beginning of the podcast. You know? If we can if we can harness the energy of both of us, then it's exponentially better. You know? So what we did there is looked at looked for and I did deep interviews here, I remember, with a number of successful partnerships who are self identified as introverts and extroverts in all kinds of fields. And once that had sustained time you know, had been around for a while. And what they did and where they ran into roadblocks too, you know, where the which is which is gonna happen. So, yeah, so we identified five different key themes again that they, you know, pulled that we pulled out of those interviews.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:23:52]:
One of them was ex and we're kinda cute tongue in cheek to accept the alien. You know? We talked about acceptance. Right? Another was destroy the dislike. So what do we mean by that? It was like, you know, you should you don't have to be best friends, but you do have to get along and have some sort of camaraderie. So what are you gonna do to make that happen? And and realizing that casting the character is another one. Like, making sure that you're real always taking a look at how do you use those strengths with the end user. So my favorite example from that is is my friend Marty, who's very extroverted as a sales person doing this presentation in the front of this room of health care folks he was selling to. And his partner was kind of moving around the periphery of the room, having very quiet kinda check ins and conversations with with those clients to see where their resistance was, what were they thinking.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:24:47]:
Together, they were extremely successful because they balanced their skills and their strengths. So I loved having like, pulling out examples of that, the genius of ops. It's and we have ones through history too, like Paul and Oates and all of these different people. And, also, ones that kinda blew up, you know, when they didn't accept. It's not easy, like we said, with a relationship, with a marriage. You know? Same thing.

David Hall [00:25:10]:
Yeah. And, you know, there's so many different aspects of our personalities, and we need them all. You know? We none of us have all the gifts, and sometimes we don't recognize that. You know? We try to take a one size fits all approach, but, really, we need to value everybody's strengths and figure out how we can put that all together. You know?

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:25:29]:
Oh, absolutely. And I and I think, again, I'll bring the humor in. That came up a lot. That came up a lot. One of my favorite clips that I showed in in the train well, well, I still show it in the training sessions is with Gene Siskel and Roger Ebert, who were so different. You know? And Ebert, as you can imagine, he was more, yeah, I'm yeah. I'm not mixing him up. He was more extroverted.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:25:52]:
And they were just so they were like fire and water. But together, they really you know, for people that weren't aware, they reviewed the movies when we used to just watch appointment TV.

David Hall [00:26:02]:
Right. Right.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:26:03]:
At night, they would go thumbs up or thumbs down. And when they disagreed, it was, like, very intriguing and engaging. And so they there are some clips of them just cracking up, you know, just kind of laughing and, like, throwing zingers at each other. But everybody can relate to that, you know, not in a mean way, but just kind of like, you're my friend, but you're kind of so different than me. You know?

David Hall [00:26:25]:
Yeah. For sure. And then the next one, creating introverted friendly workplaces. And I was kind of interested in the fact that you put this out in 2020 and, you know, all that happened in 2020.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:26:39]:
Absolutely. And, you know, it it's really still absolutely relevant. I I mean, not absolutely, but it's still relevant in many ways, to the what happened was I I went out and did did field research out in Silicon Valley and all of these places. And interestingly enough, you know, it was very office focused. We had one section. What we did was take a look at all the like, a lot of the different practices within a workplace. So we looked here at the larger scale, you know, of not just if we think about introverted leaders, individual development, and then quiet influence was more influencing across genius of opposites, introvert, extrovert pairs. And then when we take a look at the the the structure, the workplace you're in, you want to have an organization that's going to embrace all types.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:27:30]:
Right? Because if you're you're still working on the individual, but you still have a climate and a culture that is not supporting that, it's gonna be very challenging. Right? So it was really interesting to look at organizations, and it wasn't true in all aspects of their companies. But, like, in hiring, you know, ones who are taking a look step back and saying, are we being you know, let's let's discuss this. Are we being biased because we're expecting people to be, like, fantastic interviewers and have it all down in that way, but they're really competent and could do the job? Are we and you I heard so many examples, and I have throughout my work about people being passed over because they weren't scintillating, you know, or they're not the person I wanna have the beer with. You know? So we looked at practices like that, like talent management. And then the workplace itself, the office environment. So that was interesting because I also we also addressed in this remote and hybrid, but, of course, then that exploded. And now we're kind of seeing somewhat of a shift as we do as we record this episode.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:28:36]:
Who knows when we it comes out what's gonna happen. We still have a tremendous amount of organizations sticking with the hybrid remote as of this recording. And I think that was the biggest part if I can move into, like, what I worked on an introverted leader now, which we took that even more forward to say, what were the results of introverts being at home, you know, working from home? So that was a part of it.

David Hall [00:28:59]:
Tell yeah. Tell us about that. What what are the results? What you know, what are the strengths? What are some myths about introversions working introversions. Introverts working remotely. You know? Tell us about that.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:29:11]:
Yeah. You know, it's it's we did this one survey I did, I had over 240 responses, and over 90% of the introverts were, like, thrilled that that they had the option for remote. It was even a little bit less on hybrid. Now we we surveyed people at the beginning of the pandemic, and then this was after the book had just come out. I did one also before the book, and that was still seen as it was we didn't have the numbers then for to assess remote work, but we still had a lot of anecdotal data that people loved it. You know? Because it wasn't as prevalent. It was becoming that way, right, before. And then, of course, it went full scale during during COVID.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:29:53]:
But in any case, there was a couple of a couple of results that I think reflected even larger scales of studies, one in particular by Nicholas Bloom, where he surveyed large amounts of people. And that was about having, first of all, something very basic. And this is true for introverts and extroverts, but I think the commute time, people that was, like, the number one reason why people loved it. But then, of course, there was we found increased focus. Introverts like not having you know, do you have a minute? You know? And then feeling that they were being rude, not talking to people. Flexibility was another key, and, those were the the key ones, I think. But at the same time, hybrid also is getting some positive marks, like, in terms of having the face to face time, you know, and and having a chance to to connect with your team members. I think what's happening now is as I'm tracking what's going on, that we're getting more smart smarter about how the office time is used because we would get a lot of feedback from introverts who were making a big effort to come in the office, then they'd be on Zoom calls all day.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:31:04]:
So that was not working.

David Hall [00:31:06]:
So it's That sounds familiar.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:31:07]:
Does that sound familiar?

David Hall [00:31:09]:
Yeah.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:31:09]:
You're doing that kind of thing. It's like, why am I here? Right? Why am I here? So I think that that we are seeing that was just a really big shift in the workplace, and I think, you know, it it's been a very positive change for introverts to have that option, to be able to not have to have people facing days every single day, whether it's hybrid or or remote. Now you asked about challenges. Loneliness is the number one. They don't always say it that way, but it you know, that's what the research is showing as well that, you know, people can get isolated just as we found with taking quiet time in in in quiet influence that you can get very just like in your head too much and not have stimulation. The the research has come out by my colleague and friend, Ryan Jenkins, where he wrote a lot about loneliness, he he distilled much of the research that talked about the endorphins going up when you simply even have a conversation with, you know, somebody in a coffee shop or the barista, you know, or in an elevator. Just being seeing people is is a very good thing. So and that does not count really Zoom on Zoom.

David Hall [00:32:22]:
Yeah. You know, that's actually a lot what you just described is where this podcast came from. So, you know, it's 2020, and I'm hearing, oh, introverts are just loving this. But I knew some very lonely introverts, myself included. I was home with my family, which I love. You know? My wife and three kids, I loved it. But I wasn't seeing anybody else. And you do.

David Hall [00:32:46]:
You know? Introverts, we all need connection. Sometimes we want it to look different than it does, but we all need connection. And just not seeing anybody, it was tough. And so I'm I'm kind of a fan of the hybrid because I do you know, there are some benefits from working from home. But, personally, in the current work I'm doing, I don't wanna do that all the time Yeah. Of course. With the connection. You know, it was it was interesting.

David Hall [00:33:11]:
A couple things. I I missed the walking to a meeting or walking from a meeting with somebody and really making that connection. You didn't have that. It's like, okay. It's time for the Zoom meeting. Time to stop. You know? Or you've talked about the commute. While I don't miss the gas and the time and everything, that was a quiet time.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:33:31]:
Yeah.

David Hall [00:33:32]:
But I had to figure out, okay. Where do I get this quiet unwinding time before work or after work?

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:33:38]:
Yeah. That you need to build that in. Exactly. Yeah. Just because if you take it on the flip side, if people are focused or have all remote, they are finding ways to connect. Like, you know, intentionally have one schedule one on one conversations with the people that are not in their department because that's what you're talking about. You're talking about, like, the cross pollination, right, that is helpful for your job because then you get the context of what's happening outside of your just little area. Right? But your Zoom meetings, a lot of those happen tend to be just with your intact teams.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:34:14]:
So I think that was one area that did come up in our surveys as being a concern that I'm missing that, but I'm also seeing even companies sort of structure those times and say this is your time to to connect. We're pairing you with people. We started our book clubs back then because we were getting with one company that we piloted with Synchrony. They had gotten some results on there. They get very high results on that great place to work survey, but they did get some concerns during COVID that people were feeling disconnected. So one of the very proactive leaders I work with, Josh Crawford, actually pulled his global team together on a book club, and they actually used our book, creative introvert

David Hall [00:34:58]:
introvert That's awesome. That's awesome.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:34:59]:
Every week, they would do two chapters, and they would alternate who was facilitating, who was organizing. And it was a great way to meet people that who they would never would have really connected with. So, you know, people are being I think, you know, people are being creative around that. I will say one other thing. When I did the original research for the workplaces, there's a company called Gensler that you might have heard with their their design organization, and they've done a lot of research on what were what makes for a productive office environment. And they talked about three areas. One was collaboration, the second was socialization, and the third was fully focus. Okay? So that's where we were you know, if we think two of three of those involve connections with people.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:35:48]:
You know? Yeah. It's good to keep that in mind. And and as and I have said, I just wrote a post about this in the LinkedIn newsletter that I do, which people can actually subscribe to. Just follow me on LinkedIn, and you can sign up. But I talked about how now we have an opportunity as we are having more companies, you know, with these mandates to go back to rethink how we address the needs of introverts. It's a good opportunity to do that. So Yeah. I gave I gave them some ideas.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:36:15]:
If they listen, it'll be another question.

David Hall [00:36:17]:
Alright. And then, of course, your first book, which is now in its second edition, soon to be third edition, the introverted leader. Yeah. We talk a lot about leadership on this podcast because there's still some misconceptions like, oh, introverts, they can't be leaders. You know? So So tell us, you know, about an introverted leader. Where where it might look different for extroverts? What was what did you learn where you made a second and now third edition? You know, what were the things that you learned about that about introverts and their path to success as leaders?

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:36:51]:
That's a great two part question there.

David Hall [00:36:53]:
Yeah.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:36:53]:
You know, I I think leaders of all types listen, David. We know that's a hallmark of a good leader is to listen, to be thoughtful, and then being thoughtful, they're then decisive. Nobody wants a wishy washy leader. They're clear in their communication. I think they engage with people very well, good leaders. My best leaders that I've ever had have done that. And, you know, they take the time to talk to people individually and get to know them. And I think that we've saw that come out as a real strength over the last few years when people are isolated, how important that even connected to their mental health and their productivity.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:37:33]:
So I think if you think about the introvert leader lens on top of that I mean, introverted leaders have all of the key strengths to really make that happen. They just need to put them into play. And the other part of your question tell me that again. I was focused on

David Hall [00:37:47]:
What that's that's great. What what Oh, did you change between your your additions, you know, and what's coming out in the next one?

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:37:54]:
Yeah. That's a that's a good question. We don't they don't like us to change everything because what's working, you wanna keep as well. Right? So we change, I think, 20%, twenty five %, something like that. So, you know, I think there's more acceptance now and understanding of introverted leaders. So we really I did a whole new chapter about the new workplace, and that really bumped up, yes, and and incorporated a lot of the research I was just talking about that people can consider as they design their own optimal work situations, but also as managers think about the kind of environments they want to make conducive for everybody. So I think that's been the the main change. I think let me think what else we we put in there.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:38:37]:
There's I I every chapter has been updated with new examples. I started the podcast a couple years ago, and I incorporated some of the top leaders like Doug Conant and incorporated some of the top leaders like Doug Kona and some others who have shared some very personal stories, but also give another slant to the whole introvert acceptance kind of thing. And we we interviewed did a whole series with Quiet Men that I collaborated with Ed Frauenheim on. And, some of those, like, intersections of men who are introverted, women who are introverted, we pulled out some of those key themes from that, and I think those people will find very interesting as they deepen their own understanding, you know, for themselves. I'm I'm just pleased. I'm sorry. Go on.

David Hall [00:39:20]:
Oh, no. I was just saying I had Ed on the show. So, yeah, it's great work that you did with Ed.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:39:25]:
Yeah. We we worked well together. We we have we have a good time together. You know, people like you, I'm so pleased at this point in time that we have really terrific voices like yours who are, you know, amplifying the needs of introverts. But I will tell you, it's very interesting. I'm getting so I don't know if you've heard this, but some people are saying that it shifted so much that they don't wanna be extroverts.

David Hall [00:39:51]:
I'm not quite hearing that. But

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:39:53]:
I'm hearing that. I'm hearing that from my extroverted people I run into. When we talk about introversion extrovert, they go, oh, you know, I I'm really not an extrovert when you know clearly they are. But I'm really not, you know, the ones who are who are absolutely, we know are extroverted. But it's so and I it's kind of ironic. It's kind of funny to just hear them say, well, you know, it's cool to be introverted. So I think we have to be careful about these labels and how we interpret them. And I will say that now a spectrum is how I look at things.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:40:23]:
You know? Things are since I wrote the first book and now even in this third one, now it's much more evident that, you know, we're we're all on a spectrum. We're all on a learning journey. And, you know, I my editor said to me on this last book, he said, you know, Jennifer, I think you've become, an introvert. I was like, no. I I wouldn't say that, Steve. I forgot that. But I said, why do you say that? Well, you're prepared so well for meetings. You're listening so much better.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:40:48]:
I said, I've learned from my introverted colleagues. So I think we all can learn from each other.

David Hall [00:40:53]:
Oh, yeah. I think and you brought up something that I battle is sometimes people are so interested in the label, and it's like, okay. The label, all that does is help you understand yourself, help you understand other people. And, Jennifer, you're always gonna be an extrovert. You can learn how to use your strengths and gifts and needs and be the best that you can be, and I'm always gonna be an introvert. That's not gonna change. And so many people say, well, I I can't be an introvert. I like people.

David Hall [00:41:21]:
I'm like, yeah. We all like people. You know? It's just you learn you learn what you want, what you need, but liking people doesn't make you an extrovert. It's really how you process things more often than not.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:41:34]:
That's right. And people also what what other things do they tell us? Well, you know, I'm an introvert at home, and I'm an extrovert at work.

David Hall [00:41:40]:
Yeah. Right. Right. Right.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:41:42]:
You know, that could be that you put on that hat, but I you know, it's always concerning to me if you're just coming up with trying to be somebody who's not you and being out there, and you're gonna be exhausted. So, you know, take know yourself. That know thyself is the old expression. And when you talk about what what's a leader, the best ones know themselves.

David Hall [00:42:03]:
Yeah. One more leadership question for you. So being a successful leader in your experience, have you found that it can look different for introverts versus extroverts?

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:42:14]:
Can it look different? Yeah. I think people will come across differently in how they present because they're different people, and they have different personalities. I I don't think we can always tell, though, if somebody is an introvert and extrovert because we all develop along that spectrum, and we adapt. So we have to be careful of, you know, stereotyping. I think you were saying that before of judging folks and saying, oh, I have an extroverted boss when in fact your boss may actually be introverted. And because he she or he has learned many behaviors to do you know, it's more I see it more on the introvert side. So that's why it's extremely important to have conversations with the people you work with to explain to them what qualities are very important to you. Like, how important is it, you know, for instance, even on a basic level, to write down your thoughts to me so I can consider them.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:43:14]:
That's important to make all the difference in how you respond and how you work together. So we have to we oftentimes don't talk about how we work together. So I'm kind of moving from your question, but I think that's an important one without you know, when you say, is is there a difference? Sure. We can present differently, but we truly don't know somebody and what they need until we have a conversation with them.

David Hall [00:43:37]:
Absolutely. And I know some very loud and outspoken introverts that people probably judge as extroverts, but you really have to get to know a person, their strengths, their needs, how they process information, all that good stuff.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:43:50]:
That's right. And they need to know themselves and share that Yeah. And see what they need. And, you know, it's interesting. I've had a lot of introverts who I've interviewed. You probably has as well, who say, it's up to me. If it's to be, it's up to me. I think Doug said that on the podcast.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:44:07]:
If it's to be, it's up to me. I it's not just for us to guess what you need, right, from us. Right. We we need to share that, and and I have to sometimes nudge my introverted clients to speak up and say what you need. So that way people can really be effective in working with you.

David Hall [00:44:26]:
And then one last question. You you were talking about how things have changed since you, you know, especially since you started writing and speaking. Wow.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:44:33]:
Is there

David Hall [00:44:34]:
anything else you wanted to say about that, like how our conversations and understanding of our personalities have changed over this time?

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:44:41]:
Well, I think it's mostly very positive that people are actually willing to discuss this, and they they pass like, as my friend Sam Horn says, they have they pass the eyebrow test. When you still bring up this topic, people will raise their eyebrows so you know they're interested. So we still I would say it's very interesting. Whereas you said before, people would you'd say introverted leader. They're like, what? How could that ever be? So I think we're seeing more of an understanding and interest in this topic. So I think that would be probably the main change that I've seen and just so many people like yourself who have embraced this in their own lives and wanna share the message, you know, that we're gonna have a better, more productive, happy, joyful, you know, planet if we can bring out everybody as as they are, you know, and not and not we don't have to fit into a certain type of stereotype that we think is is success. So I think we're broadening the the meaning of discuss success by all of these discussions and all of this understanding and awareness, and the research will continue. I I hope it does.

David Hall [00:45:55]:
Yeah. Well said on all of that. So, Jennifer, this has been a great conversation. You do some amazing work. Your third edition of the introvert leaders coming out. Your third season of the introvert ally podcast is coming out soon. Correct?

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:46:09]:
Yep. Next week, March twenty day before my birthday. March 25.

David Hall [00:46:13]:
Awesome.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:46:14]:
I got my birthday in there. I'm a I love celebrating my birthday. Yeah. Guess it's a way to do that. Right? March 26. Awesome. My family knows they're tired of hearing me talking about my birthdays. Yeah.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:46:26]:
Next week, we have that launching, and then the book comes out June 24, and people can preorder it now on Amazon. It'll be available on the other side soon too that where you get your books. Awesome. Link LinkedIn is another place that I I engage a lot with people, so I'd love to connect with you there.

David Hall [00:46:45]:
Sounds great. Thanks again, Jennifer. This has been a wonderful conversation. Thanks for all the work you do.

Jennifer Kahnweiler [00:46:51]:
David, right back at you. Thank you.

David Hall [00:46:53]:
Thank you so much for joining me. I appreciate you. I hope you take the time to explore other episodes and learn from other amazing guests. Remember, if you're interested in getting to know yourself better, there is now a free type finder personality assessment on the Quiet and Strong website. This free assessment will give you a brief report, including the four letter Myers Briggs code. I'll add a link in the show notes. And I'd love to connect with you. Reach out at david@quietstrong.com or check out the quietandstrong.com website, which includes blog posts and links to social media for Quiet and Strong and much more.

David Hall [00:47:30]:
Send me topics or guests you would like to see on the show. So many great things about being an introvert, and so we need those to be understood. Get to know your introverted strengths and needs, and be strong.