The Quiet and Strong Podcast, Especially for Introverts
The Quiet and Strong Podcast, Especially for Introverts
Ep 239 - The Quiet Achiever's Guide to Authentic Introverted Leadership with Tim Yeo
Have you ever wondered what authentic leadership looks like for introverts—and how you can harness your natural strengths to create real impact without pretending to be someone you’re not? In this episode of The Quiet And Strong Podcast, host David Hall welcomes Tim Yeo, Chief Introvert of The Quiet Achiever, designer, coach, keynote speaker, and author of "The Quiet Achiever: Tiny Habits to Have Impact at Work Without Pretending to Be an Extrovert."
Join David and Tim as they explore how introverts can become powerful leaders by embracing, rather than hiding, their quiet strengths. You’ll learn why introversion is never a weakness and how society’s misconceptions can actually help you discover your unique path to leadership. Tim shares his journey from feeling like he had to wear a mask at work to finding confidence and success on his own terms—and he offers practical strategies for thriving as an introvert in the workplace.
If you’re looking to be inspired by a real role model for introverted leadership, discover actionable tips for building confidence, and gain the validation that your quiet nature is something to be proud of, this episode is for you.
Tune in, embrace your quiet strengths—and be strong.
Episode Link: QuietandStrong.com/239
Tim Yeo is the chief introvert of The Quiet Achiever. He coaches and runs The Quiet Achiever School to help quiet achievers have impact at work without pretending to be extroverts.
Tim spent 20+ years as a designer and design leader, most recently Design Director at IBM. Previously, Tim was the Head of UX and Design at fintech startups @Finder, @OFX and @Prospa where he hired, established and scaled design teams from scratch.
Best known for saying complex things simply and coining the term “people-ing”. He is also a keynote speaker, bookbinder and published his book, The Quiet Achiever, working remotely from his farm in Adelaide, Australia with his partner and the fluffiest Old English Sheepdog ever.
Contact Tim:
Visit the website: TheQuietAchievr.com
Get the book: The Quiet Achiever: Tiny Habits to Have impact at Work
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Contact the Host of the Quiet and Strong Podcast:
David Hall
Author, Speaker, Educator, Podcaster
quietandstrong.com
Gobio.link/quietandstrong
david [at] quietandstrong.com
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Minding Your Time: Time Management, Productivity, and Success, Especially for Introverts
Tim Yeo [00:00:00]:
There are people who, when I first talked to them, they're like, oh, I'm not an introvert. No, no, I'm not an introvert. And I found that to be true because I think there are certain parts of societies in the world where being an introvert is a bad word. I remember reading on a workplace survey and he was asking for tell me about your strengths. And there was a multiple choice question. And then the next question that came up was, tell me about your weaknesses. And one of the multiple choice options was introversion. And I remember when I was reading this on the forum, I felt really angry on the inside.
Tim Yeo [00:00:37]:
I was like, no, introversion is not a weakness. What are you talking about? Sometimes when I first talk to people and they don't have the same definitions of what introversion is as I do now, and I find that that word has a negative connot.
David Hall [00:01:02]:
Hello and welcome to episode 239 of the Quiet and Strong podcast, especially for introverts. I'm your host David hall and the creator of Quiet and Strong dot com. This is a weekly podcast dedicated to understanding the strengths and needs of introverts along with strategies for success. Introversion is not something to fix, but to be embraced. Normally we will air each episode on a Monday. Be sure to subscribe on your favorite platform, leave a review or rating that would mean a lot to me and help others find the show. Tell a friend about the podcast. Help get the word out there that introversion is a beautiful thing.
David Hall [00:01:36]:
Tim yo is the chief introvert of the Quiet Achiever. He coaches and runs the Quiet Achiever School to help Quiet Achievers have impact at work without pretending to be extroverts. Best known for saying complex things simply and coining the term peopling. He is also keynote speaker bookbinder, and published his book the Quiet Achiever. Working remotely from his farm in Adelaide, Australia with this partner and the fluffiest old English sheepdog ever. All right, well, welcome to the Quiet and Strong podcast, Tim. Tim, it's so good to have you on today.
Tim Yeo [00:02:13]:
David. So happy to be on and thank you so much for this opportunity from Sydney, Australia, where I am right now.
David Hall [00:02:20]:
Yeah, welcome. We're going to talk about the great work you do supporting introverts and the book that you've written. Tell us a little bit more about yourself and your journey as an introvert to coaching other introverts.
Tim Yeo [00:02:36]:
To all the introverts that are listening to your podcast. How much do we love those four words? Isn't it? Tell me about yourself.
David Hall [00:02:43]:
Right Right.
Tim Yeo [00:02:46]:
It's probably the four words that in the past would suddenly put me on the spot. And I feel this bead of cold sweat coming down my forehead, not really even knowing who I am anymore and what I should be introducing about myself. Over time, I kind of learned a couple of things. How I can make things that I struggle with, even simple things like introducing myself. I learned how to make it a whole lot easier, but to give the audience that's listening in a short introduction to me. I'm Tim Yeoh, and I've been a designer and a design leader in tech for the last 20 years or so. Mostly here in Australia, where I currently am, mostly for startups that you probably never heard of, over in the US or wherever it is you guys are. But the whole time that I've been there and in my career, I always found myself working in rooms full of people with strong opinions and loud voices.
Tim Yeo [00:03:44]:
And I couldn't tell you why. But for as long as I can remember, I always. I always wanted to be a leader. I always wanted to shape the world in the way that I saw it through my mind and through my work. The problem was that in the. As soon as I went to school and went to work, every picture of what a leader looked like, it didn't look like me. To paint a picture for you, the picture of what a leader looked like. Do you remember that scene from Braveheart where you have Mel Gibson's character riding up on a horse, giving a loud, charismatic speech in front of his troops, rallying them before a big battle? That's a picture of what a leader looked like to me, in my head.
Tim Yeo [00:04:27]:
Because those were the pictures of what a leader looked like around me at work and in school. That's just what a leader looked like. And for a long time I thought that if I wanted to be a leader, then that that was who I needed to be. And so I pretended. And it worked. But I was exhausted because I was constantly pretending to be somebody that I was not. Every day it felt like I was wearing a mask. And with each passing day, the mask just grew heavier and heavier and heavier until one day I just couldn't pretend anymore.
Tim Yeo [00:05:06]:
I couldn't put on that mask anymore. And so then I thought, maybe I'm just not good enough. Maybe I'm just not cut out to be a leader. But there was just something within me just refused to give up. So then I realized that all this time, all these little things I've been doing, having meetings one on one, being able to go and Network one on one, people do things in my own quiet, natural way. It was my path to leadership. It was a different way. It didn't look like that picture of what a leader could look like in, in the places that I grew up in or worked in or lived in or worked in, but it was my path to leadership.
Tim Yeo [00:05:44]:
It's a different path. And then I thought, you know, I started giving this talk called Quiet Leadership for introverts at conferences. And every single time, even though it took a lot out of me, every time I gave that talk people, it always really resonated. People took a lot away from those talks. And since then I've done online courses and last year I wrote a book called the Quiet Achie Achiever. Tiny Habits to have Impact at Work Without Pretending to be an extrovert. And then through this time, through my career, I also found that I've really enjoy coaching, helping people one on one. Those are people that are on my team.
Tim Yeo [00:06:24]:
Then I started doing it with people I never met before, people who don't report to me. And it's up until today. I probably coach over 500 plus introverts around the world and it doesn't matter whether they were from my industry in design or in tech. Funnily enough, I've been coaching a couple of doctors who are working in medicine and they have the same struggles that they face as well. Whether it's really industry agnostic. And that's really how I got to this point so far. Hopefully that paints a picture of who I am. David.
David Hall [00:06:59]:
Oh, absolutely. And I've been there. I thought something was wrong with me. I tried to pretend to be something I wasn't. And like you said, it's very draining and it's also not as effective. You're not as good when you're trying to be something that you're not. But when you are being your authentic self, you can do some amazing things. It just, it might look different.
David Hall [00:07:23]:
Introverts like you're talking about can be amazing leaders, but their path to success might be different from their extroverted colleague.
Tim Yeo [00:07:30]:
You know, I think part of the reason why I keep doing these podcasts and doing more talks and putting myself out there on social media and on networks is to try and give people to try and have role models for other people to look up to. I remember when I was growing up, going through school and even at work, if you ask me to name even today, how many role models do I have of what introverted leadership looks like and there will be very few My hope is that with the book and with all these things that you and I are doing, that more role models will actually step up, show up, raise their hand and say that, yes, I'm a leader. I'm. I'm what people think is successful. And yes, I am also then introvert. Because people need somebody you look up to, even to model, and to say that, yes, there is a different path to leadership and to success. You don't have to be that other picture that doesn't look like us. But that only happens if people actually speak up and stand out.
David Hall [00:08:34]:
Yeah, absolutely. So, Tim, what was it you're figuring out that you're not being yourself? What was it that you connected to understand that you were an introvert? Was there a particular resource or something that, you know, what, what happened?
Tim Yeo [00:08:49]:
I remember that very clearly. So that was Susan Cain's ted talk from 2012.
David Hall [00:08:55]:
Seen it?
Tim Yeo [00:08:56]:
Yes.
David Hall [00:08:56]:
Very good.
Tim Yeo [00:08:57]:
It was amazing talk because for the first time I felt like I was looking at somebody on stage that kind of looked like me, obviously with different people, but the stories that you share, they were. It's as if she was talking about how I grew up, how I felt at work. And it was really from her book Quiet and. And her TED Talk there really set out to me. They gave me a definition of what introversion is and what it isn't, because I think there are a lot of misconceptions about what, what it is and what is not. People are sometimes talk about being introvert as being shy, but it simply isn't. It gave me a definition. And with it, that definition, it then showed me, you know, what, you know, this is a definition of introversion that I like, that I think is accurate.
Tim Yeo [00:09:44]:
And it's got nothing to do with being a good leader, a good boss, being a good worker. It's got nothing to do with that. It just talks about how I manage my energy and, and that. That really shaped my thinking and was a starting point for me, learning about the word, the definition and what it is all about.
David Hall [00:10:03]:
Yeah, yeah. For me, the same. It's like I'm an internal processor. You know, I. I'm internally oriented. You know, I do need some time to recharge, but I also need time for lots of things, like to get some work done, to, you know, to think and to plan and all of that. And, and, you know, it's not a shyness thing for me. I was shy when I didn't understand my introversion, when I, When I thought something was wrong with me.
David Hall [00:10:33]:
That also made Me, shy. But now I'm very confident because I understand, you know, what I'm thinking first and then speaking. I come up with some great ideas. And it's a good thing, you know, my extroverted friend's gonna think out loud more than me. They're gonna probably say more words than me. And so it's all good, you know, what is the strength that you have because you're an introvert?
Tim Yeo [00:11:00]:
I think a strength I have is definitely being able to listen without being eager to respond. I find myself when I'm listening to people, I also actively take notes, especially in a work context. I find some other people struggle with that when we do talk about it. And you can just see in their face that when we are talking or we're having a conversation, they're not really listening to what I'm saying. They're actually thinking about what they're going to respond to what I'm saying next. And they can't wait for those words to come out. So oftentimes because they're doing that, their head's in the wrong space. They're just thinking about what to say, what to reply back, rather than actually listening to the words that I'm saying and making sense of it.
Tim Yeo [00:11:45]:
On contrary, what I do, I tend to listen to what people are saying. Sometimes I write notes to make sense of it. And it's only after I do that, as I process what they're saying, that I then start formulating my thoughts and then I respond. I'm not in a hurry to react. I'm not in a hurry to interrupt people. Sure, that happens from time to time when there are certain scenarios where people are saying the wrong thing, they're going down the wrong path. But most cases, most of the time, I do find myself not being eager to speak, but very happy to listen to what people are saying. And conversations and communication is two ways.
Tim Yeo [00:12:25]:
If one of those ways doesn't work really strongly for you, if you don't listen very well, then overall communication may not be. Your communication skills may not be as strong as other people. So I find that being able to sit back and listen and really listen to what people are saying and hearing what they have to say and not be eager to respond. I do think that is a strength that not just myself, but a lot of introverts have.
David Hall [00:12:49]:
Yeah, yeah. And I mean, you do have to actively listen. Just because someone's talking doesn't mean the other person's listening. You know, some. Sometimes that happens too. But yeah, it needs to be like you're saying it needs to go both ways. It needs to be a conversation.
Tim Yeo [00:13:06]:
And I do find the second strength and this is common to a lot of introverts that I've spoken to and have coached. Introverts, amazing preppers, they prepare. They prepare to the nth degree.
David Hall [00:13:20]:
Yeah.
Tim Yeo [00:13:20]:
And I think sometimes they do that because it's a way to compensate for performance. The challenge I find sometimes when I'm coaching people is they over prepare. But under practice I think Jennifer Kahn Whaler's book the Introverted Leader, she set out a 4Ps framework about the 4Ps of how she organized skills that introverts can focus on. Four Ps are being able to prepare, to be present, to practice. And there's one more P I can't remember right now. I do know I have her, I have her book.
David Hall [00:13:55]:
She just put out the third edition. So she was on the show as well. So I should, I should know it. But anyway, yeah, check out that.
Tim Yeo [00:14:03]:
I'm sure it'll come back. I'm sure you'll come back. But what I do notice is that people tend to over prepare and especially things like public speaking or things like preparing for a big meeting or preparing for networking, they prepare in their heads. They think about the things that they want to say, they think about the people that they want to meet. But especially if a skill like public speaking, preparing is great. It's great that you prepare, but you also have to practice. And by practice I literally mean using speaking out loud, saying the words that you're going to say the way that you want to say it so that you can actually feel the words coming off your mouth. And it's a performance, it's a skill that you have to practice.
Tim Yeo [00:14:52]:
And I find that a lot of people miss out on that P that practice P, especially quieter people. And if you don't practice and you don't try it out for real, then everything just in your head. And then oftentimes what happens is they feel as if they have underperformed. But really what's happened is they've under practiced. So while preparation comes very naturally to acquire a lot quiet people, I think if you actually balance that out with some practice, whether it's networking, handling difficult conversations, making small talk, all these are things that you can practice and there are many opportunities in the day for you to do that either on your own or in day to day life.
David Hall [00:15:33]:
Yeah, and we definitely need to prepare because we're not always the best at thinking on our feet. You know, our brains take Longer to process things sometimes. But yeah, you got to practice too. And the other thing is, you know, you can prepare, but just give yourself a break because you can't prepare for everything. You know, you do your best, you do your best. And I've learned that with public speaking. I tell myself, you know, you did your best. And.
David Hall [00:16:04]:
And then afterward think about, you know, how'd that go? And you can always get better, but you got to practice.
Tim Yeo [00:16:10]:
Like you're saying, yeah, you know, David, for example, the thing that I struggle with the most when I moved to a western culture here in Sydney, Australia, I was originally from Singapore in Asia. And one of the things that I really struggled with was making small talk. Because small talk didn't exist where I grew up in Asia, people just stare at their phones or they're reading a paper or a book. You know, they wouldn't be talk to strangers. But that happens so often over here. And then somebody might be asking, how are you? And in the beginning I actually told them how I actually was. And I realized very quickly that I was over sharing. They were just saying hi.
Tim Yeo [00:16:50]:
But other times, like in networking scenarios, you're meeting people for the first time and you don't really know what to say. And I find sometimes it's people who like, like myself, for example, I really struggle with small talk. And it's because I really struggle. It didn't come naturally to me. Me, other people where small talk came very naturally to, they just did it. But I found, because I struggled, I found myself, I had to come up with a way, a framework to actually make small talk. And I share about it in the book. I'm not sure if you're familiar with a framework of Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
David Hall [00:17:26]:
But basically, yes, I wanted to compliment you on that. I'd never heard that with small talk. So I did see that in your book and I thought that was a great way to explain small talk.
Tim Yeo [00:17:40]:
So if for people listening who are not familiar, Maslow's hierarchy of needs really has got five levels. And it starts off at the lowest level with physiological needs. Then you have shelter, love and belonging. And then you have at the top you have self actualization. And when it comes to small talk, again, I use this framework as a way to come up with topics to make small talk. So at the base basic level, you can talk about food and shelter, you can talk about the kinds of sports that you enjoy watching, you talk about your pets. And the reason why, when you're making small talk, the key is to really Focus on the lower levels. Because the lower levels are where you have the biggest opportunity of connecting with the most number of people.
Tim Yeo [00:18:26]:
Because everybody needs to eat, sleep, you can talk about the weather like the people in the UK love to, in the England love to talk about the weather. You know, these are all things that connect us and as part of the human experience, you know, and the lower the levels you go, the more chances of you making a connection with the other person. Whether the other person is a checkout person at a store, it could be a farmer on the street, it could be your CEO in the company. Everybody has that same human experience at those levels. So if you're meeting somebody for the first time, you don't quite know who they are, what they like. It's a very good place to actually start to make small talk. Small talk is not real talk that happens after. Small talk is, is really an opportunity to, to connect as human beings first before the real talk happens after.
David Hall [00:19:16]:
Yeah, and I, that's part of the struggle for introverts in my mind is that, you know, we're not always fast on our feet. But the other thing is we want to get to those deeper conversations and sometimes we don't want to talk about the weather. But I know for myself, I've definitely gotten better at small talk and I will talk about the weather, but small talk's so necessary to get to those deeper conversations that we often want, you know, the top of the pyramid, the self accus actualization.
Tim Yeo [00:19:51]:
Yeah, but those are deep conversations and sometimes people don't want to open up to somebody they just met.
David Hall [00:19:58]:
No, you gotta, yeah, you gotta warm up. And you know, sometimes we want to skip all that and sometimes you can, you, you know, introvert to introvert. Sometimes you do jump right into the deep conversation, but most often you like. You're saying you have to engage in small talk to get there.
Tim Yeo [00:20:15]:
Yeah, definitely.
David Hall [00:20:17]:
What's, what's some other advice for if somebody's struggling with small talk? What, what. How do you come up with things to talk about?
Tim Yeo [00:20:27]:
Honestly, I think you really only need two to three topics that you really care about. For example, I like to complain about the weather. It might be too cold or too wet or too hot. It's something you can talk about. I also really love food. So whether it's always a topic that comes about, the key thing is really working on topics that are meaningful to you, that you care about. For example, a lot of people care about sports as well in different parts of the world. You have cricket, you get football you have soccer, you have rugby.
Tim Yeo [00:21:00]:
All these are things that people naturally care about. And those. As long as they're genuine and they come from a good place within you and honest place, then it becomes a lot more natural because you're not faking it. These are things that you genuinely do care about. You don't need many topics. You can just use the same topics with different people at different locations. One day the weather will be cold, one day the weather will be too hot. So you really just don't need those two to three topics that you talk about.
Tim Yeo [00:21:29]:
And if they are genuine and they come from you, it doesn't feel fake, it feels very. Doesn't feel forced, it feels very genuine. So if you're listening and struggle with small talk, just focus on those two or three topics at the lower levels of the hierarchy. That would really help you.
David Hall [00:21:44]:
Yeah. Something related that you talked about right when we kicked off the show is, you know, often for introverts or quiet, quieter people, it's, let's all go around the room and introduce ourselves. And that can, you know, sometimes we can't think of things to say. What's your advice there? Why is that challenging to us?
Tim Yeo [00:22:05]:
I think it's challenging because people don't prepare. It's so funny, isn't it, that when you start a new job or you meet a new group of people as part of a way of getting to know other people, as a social ritual. This happens all the time. It happens all the time. But how many of us actually prepare and write down and think about, what are we gonna. What are we gonna say about ourselves? All of a sudden we forget who we are and don't know how to stop, what to share. What's one fun fact about you that you want to share?
David Hall [00:22:42]:
Yeah, the fun fact.
Tim Yeo [00:22:44]:
Yeah. The irony of this is that introducing yourself is just. It's so ingrained in our social rituals, and it happens all the time. But the funny thing is that people don't actually prepare for it. So the biggest advice I have for you is to actually prepare to introduce yourself. In the book, I talked about how introductions come in three sizes. I just call them small, medium, and large. The small introduction is something that you can say in 20 seconds or less.
Tim Yeo [00:23:12]:
Sorry. A small introduction is something that you can say in 20 words or less and something that you can say in one breath. And the reason why it's so short is because the small intro is the one that you're going to use in a networking scenario, maybe in a very noisy place. You don't want to be telling the person your whole life story or your whole career. You just want to give them enough to get started and to pique their interest so that they can ask you interesting follow up questions after. So that's the purpose of that small intro. On the other end of the scale, you have what I call a large intro. So a large intro is something they go into deeper detail.
Tim Yeo [00:23:51]:
It could be up to five minutes. It's most useful, for example, in an interview, when you go into an interview and the interviewer says, tell me about yourself. So in that scenario, you might want to give them a snapshot of your career, places that you worked, how long you've been doing this, some of your notable accomplishments, and then you finish off by telling them a short list of things that you could look into. And that's a large introduction. And then in the middle you have what I call a middle medium intro that's anywhere between one to two minutes long. The key difference between the medium intro and the large intro is in the large intro, you are the center of attention. You are the person that is key in the medium intro. Maybe you are just one person in a big group that's introducing yourself.
Tim Yeo [00:24:40]:
Maybe you are the only new employee that's joining the team on your first day and the rest of the team is keen to know you. So you'd be sharing enough detail, but not everything because you're not the main attention. So I found if you actually prepare those three kinds of intros, it actually suits the majority of social scenarios that I found myself in. So prepare in advance, know what you want to say. It's always going to happen. Don't let it creep up on you. You know it's coming.
David Hall [00:25:13]:
So yeah, be ready, be ready. Yeah.
Tim Yeo [00:25:15]:
And practice. Prepare and practice. So that on the spot, if suddenly it creeps out and it surprises you, you, you've practiced, you know what to say, the road, the words will just roll off your tongue.
David Hall [00:25:26]:
Yeah. So you talk about both of these things in your book. You know, about introduction, small talk. Let's talk a little bit more. Just like what caused you to write the Quiet Achiever?
Tim Yeo [00:25:39]:
I started giving this, this book actually started as a talk. I had reached a stage in my career where I felt I wanted to give back. Didn't quite know what it was going to be, but it ended up being this talk. And even though giving this talk was really hard, it took a lot of energy to prepare and to practice. I kept giving it because every time I gave it at a large conference with A large audience, people took a lot away from it and they say it made a difference in their career. But I couldn't keep going to conferences. Conferences didn't happen all of the time. So then I also figured at the time that people didn't read books anymore.
Tim Yeo [00:26:16]:
I thought I was the only one of the very few weird people that still read books. Most people might be on social media watching TED talks. So then after the conference talks, I then created online courses on on most of these topics. How to handle difficult conversations, how to be more visible in your organization, how to say no politely, how to make small talk, how to speak up in meetings before you are ready. So I had online courses and content on that. But somewhere around 2023, 2024, the global economy wasn't doing too well. But people still needed a lot of help. They still needed a lot of help.
Tim Yeo [00:26:57]:
So then I figured this was the right time to introduce a book because the book is cheap and I can reach a lot more people through the book. I never written a book before. I never self published a book before. I had no idea what I was doing. The book took three months to write to get to its first edition, but took eight months to edit. But I was proud to say that Last year on 9 August 2024, I self published the Quiet Achiever on Amazon. It's available as an ebook and audiobook on Audible and Spotify and all good bookstores.
David Hall [00:27:31]:
Very good, very good. And then how did you decide to become a coach?
Tim Yeo [00:27:37]:
It came very naturally. I think the part about being a leader and a manager in tech. The thing that I was most drawn to was really helping people level up. I found there are so many talented people with all of the hard skills, all of the hard skills be able to do the thing. But oftentimes that talent, they are not given the recognition that they deserve the rewards that they deserve. And it just naturally, it came very naturally to me because I was doing part of my job. The only question I had was, could I do this with somebody that I just met? I still don't have an official coaching certification. I just coach by reading a couple of books on coaching and then simply just practicing.
Tim Yeo [00:28:23]:
And up until today, I've coached over 500 introverts and I enjoy it. It gives me a lot of energy because I find that when we first meet and they start talking about challenges that you're facing, it almost feels as if I was looking into a mirror into my past. It was a struggle that I identified with and it gives me a lot of satisfaction to help people navigate challenge. Whether it's something simple like how to have a difficult conversation with your boss, how to push back, how to say no politely. Why is it that other people did so little of the work, but they still get all the credit? How can I speak up more on behalf of my work so that I can in some ways get the rewards and recognition that I deserve? All these things that I had struggled quietly with in the past, but then learned how to deal with in my own career, these are the same stories I hear in coaching conversations. So it gives me a lot of satisfaction to help people navigate and walk through these challenges that they're facing.
David Hall [00:29:29]:
How do you help them understand their unique gifts and strengths and their introversion?
Tim Yeo [00:29:37]:
There are people who, when I first talk to them, they're like, oh, I'm not an introvert. No, no, I'm not an introvert. And I found that to be true because I think there are certain parts of societies in the world where being an introvert is a bad word. I remember reading on a workplace survey and he was asking for, tell me about your strengths. And there was a multiple choice question. And then next question that came up was, tell me about your weaknesses. And one of the multiple choice options was introversion. And I remember when I was reading this on the forum, I felt really angry on the inside.
Tim Yeo [00:30:14]:
I was like, no, introversion is not a weakness. What are you talking about? And I find sometimes when I first talk to people and they don't have the same definitions of what introversion is as I do now, and I find that that word has a negative connotation. And this, fortunately does.
David Hall [00:30:32]:
Yeah.
Tim Yeo [00:30:34]:
And that's why I very intentionally called the book the Quiet Achiever, because it's. It's the two things, right? You're quieter in nature and that's okay. But at the same time, you want to achieve. You have ambitions. There are things that you want to do well in. So that's why I call the book the Quiet Achiever. And a lot of times in the coaching conversations, when they start out, it's really just getting people to level set and say that it's okay. Who you are is okay.
Tim Yeo [00:31:01]:
Who you are is enough. You can spend your whole lifetime pretending to be somebody else, but you're not going to be half as good. And I find if people can find the acceptance that who they are is enough, they don't have to try to pretend to be somebody else. In my past, I used to compare myself to other people and wonder why I was not Good enough. And that path, comparing myself to others, was my recipe for misery. And I want to help people avoid that. It's a long journey to go through. Maybe some people have to get to the rock bottom to then work their way up.
Tim Yeo [00:31:38]:
But I do want to say for people who are open to new ideas that, yeah, introversion is not flawed. That oftentimes when they get to a point where who they are is okay, and then everything else, everything else, whether it's public speaking, speaking up before your radio meetings, all these things are just skills, and they're separate from your identity. You know, don't let who you are, your identity, how you identify it, limit you, because all these other things are skills. And skills can be practiced, and with practice and preparation, you're going to get better and better and better. So that's how a lot of coaching conversations start off with me.
David Hall [00:32:18]:
Yeah. And I always say that, you know, not all introverts struggle or not all introvert. You know, some are. Have always been confident. But how do you help those that come to you that lack confidence?
Tim Yeo [00:32:33]:
Confidence is a big word. And when it's a big word, it becomes very muddy. And when it becomes very muddy, you can't see clearly through and actually problem solved. And help you help you get the confidence that you want. So oftentimes where conversations start is really all right. What do you struggle with? What are those moments? What are those scenarios where you feel you're less confident? People might say things like, when I'm in front of my bosses or in a big room of people giving a presentation, I stutter. All of a sudden, all the preparation that I've done goes out the window. Other people just seem to be able to walk in and show up and perform, but I can't.
Tim Yeo [00:33:16]:
I tend to find if people can have conversations about the scenarios and actual behaviors, the things, the tasks that they struggle with, if the conversation then starts there, then doing tiny things, like being able to do public speaking. Well, maybe in the first case, you want to be starting on your own. I mean, public speaking is something you do in front, as an end result, in front of a group of people. Right. But you can often also start on your own. Like what I'm doing with you right now, having in a podcast. I'm in a room on my own. And you could be doing this with yourself.
Tim Yeo [00:33:52]:
You could be practicing giving that talk, that thing that you're presenting. And then as you practice, your skills get better. Maybe you might be comfortable enough to record a short video of self doing that talk. And then as you're doing it and you re watch that video again, you can pick up a all the tiny things that you don't like about your public speaking. For example, I used to say and a lot when I'm, when doing presentations and I only noticed that I was unconsciously doing it when I was re watching a video of myself giving the talk. And I would never have discovered that if I never rewatch a video of myself. And I found that if you start doing these things, low stakes, tiny habits. If you practice, practice, practice, and if each time you start increasing your stakes, then over time you're going to get to your eventual goal, which might be to be able to do public speaking in front of a large group.
Tim Yeo [00:34:50]:
Same thing with networking events. Maybe you can be networking online, which is where I do most of my networking these days. You could be having a one on one conversation with people over a video call. Maybe you could set yourself a goal of one. I'm going to do one in person networking event. I go do one a year, I'm going to do one every six months, I'm going to do one every quarter. And then over time, you know, all these tiny habits, you get better, you get better, you get more frequent, you get more frequent. And then over time you're like, before you know it, you're like, I can do it.
Tim Yeo [00:35:26]:
I've been doing it. In fact, I've been doing it for a while now. But you don't notice it because it builds up. And that's why I encourage people to start low stakes, don't go off. If you struggle with public speaking, don't target and be a TED talk speaker at a large conference in your first go start low stakes, keep practicing. And over time you find that you'll get better and better and better. And that's really my path to success.
David Hall [00:35:51]:
Yeah. And with public speaking, so many people seem to fear it. I used to, but you know, it's, I, I like how you're putting this. Go with low stakes, put yourself out there, volunteer for a presentation at work, you know, where, where there's an opportunity there and you do get better. And I think, you know, not every introvert's the same, but I think one thing we share is we have a gift of reflection. You know, we, we, we think about, okay, how did I do like you're talking about and you just get better. You know, I've been doing this podcast for a few years now and I know if I go back and listen to the first episodes, I wouldn't think I was as good, you know, and it just gets easier. You just get more comfortable.
David Hall [00:36:42]:
And I was pretty comfortable when I started. But you just get better and you just, you figure out and you do listen to yourself. And so those kinds of things are, that you're talking about are so helpful.
Tim Yeo [00:36:54]:
One of the, I mean, this way of practicing, recording a short video of yourself. I talk about it in the book, but I do find that a lot of people struggle with it because a lot of times when they re watch a video of themselves, they're like, oh my God, I can't stand the sound of my voice. I look so awkward. My voice sounds so high pitched. Why am I behaving so awkwardly? And, and when they feel that and they see that and they see themselves in their video, they stop, they stop practicing. But I can assure you, and I think you must have found this yourself, David, that especially if you editing podcasts and videos over time, it's kind of like exposure therapy over time. Whatever was awkward once is no longer awkward anymore. And soon enough, like with myself, in my own experience, I became talking head on the screen and I stopped focusing on myself, but I was focusing on my delivery.
Tim Yeo [00:37:47]:
And at that point you kind of cross what I call the hump where it's no longer awkward to actually hear yourself and see yourself on the screen. And then you can focus on the things in your delivery that you want to improve. So if you are out there trying to do this for yourself, don't give up, keep going. It will reach a point where it's no longer awkward and then you can really hone in on the things that you want to improve. So don't give up.
David Hall [00:38:11]:
Yeah. And related to this, you talk just a bit about it. How do, how do introverts that are, you know, not even public speaking, but just speaking up in a meeting. If they're, if they're struggling with that, how can they get better at that and why is it important?
Tim Yeo [00:38:29]:
I think the number one thing, if you find yourself sitting in a meeting and you want to speak up, but you, for some reason you don't. I think the most important thing to remember is that you were invited there for a reason. People actually up until today, they still can't read other people's minds yet. So if you don't speak up, people don't know what you're thinking. And how many times will you be sitting in a meeting where there's something you want to say but you say no, I'll send an email later, I'll do it later. I need a bit more time. It's not ready. I don't want to share it.
Tim Yeo [00:39:06]:
It's not perfect yet, but oftentimes then you see that the train has left the station. You know people have made a bad decision. If only you had spok up earlier. So I think if you can start from that point realizing that you were invited for a reason, because if they didn't want to hear from you, they wouldn't invite you anyways. And if you, if you kept on being quiet, then sooner or later they might see that as a sign that you are disengaged, that maybe you don't have anything valuable to add. So the reason to speak up is because people can't be your mindset and they do care about you what you think they do care, that's why they invited you. Then once, once you have the internal motivation to realize that, then everything else is really about skills. It's about how do you put your hand up and volunteer to actually speak up in a noisy room where people might be talking over each other.
Tim Yeo [00:40:03]:
One of the biggest struggles I've noticed though is that a lot of quiet people don't speak up in meetings. And because they don't feel like the idea that they have is fully formed yet, they need a bit more time. This idea is still formulating in their heads. It's fuzzy and they are not happy to share it because it's not fully formed. They don't know if it's good yet. In those cases. I share a tiny habit in the book and it's really about giving yourself permission and license to speak up. And it might sound something like this.
Tim Yeo [00:40:36]:
What I have so far isn't fully formed yet, but let me share with the group and then see what you guys think and maybe we can work on it better. Or look, you guys probably know this already, but I'm going to share it anyways and then let's talk about it thereafter. So this little prefix, this preamble before you say the thing, is what I call this permission, this license for you to actually speak up. You've already told the group that what you have is not fully baked yet. It's not great yet, it's still in the process of forming, but once you say it, it then makes it okay for you to actually say the thing. They already know that it's not fully formed. So then. But the important thing is that you do share what you currently have.
Tim Yeo [00:41:21]:
And one of the reasons why meetings work is because it's in a group setting. You actually leveraging on the collective thinking of other people. If you don't speak up, other people can't help build on your ideas. The idea just stays in your head. So it becomes important to speak up so that the idea actually leaves your head. And then other people can help you build upon it and make it even better. That's what teamwork is about. But none of the team would actually hear about it if you don't actually speak up.
Tim Yeo [00:41:51]:
In this day and age, we also. Meetings also happen, mostly for me, at least virtually and online. The biggest question I have is why is it on a zoom meeting on a Google Meets that people still rely on video and audio as the primary way of communication? For quieter people, maybe interrupting the conversation is hard, Getting attention of others is hard. Why not accept text chat as a first class citizen in how we communicate? Because that way then people can share their thoughts as the conversation is happening. And then if you, the speaker recognize the conversation that's happening in the chat window, you can respond to it. Maybe somebody wants to say a thing, you can always put your hand up. I find that especially with video chats, if you can use a second channel like chat or be able to raise your hand if you use those features that are built into these tools to actually accept them as a first class citizen of communicating, I find that you're going to get a lot more from the other quieter people on your team because they might have really good ideas to share, but maybe just they are not as good as getting the attention of others as other people are.
David Hall [00:43:05]:
Yeah, and it's so important to speak up so your ideas are shared so people know that you have something to say. It's, you know, there's always going to be times where you want to contribute afterward, but the idea is to contribute in that meeting because like you said otherwise sometimes the trains left the station and decisions have been made. I like what you're saying because I'm the type of person that, that doesn't like to share a half baked idea. I want my ideas to be fully formed but sometimes they're not. And by sharing them I mean some of the best ideas I've seen isn't any one person's idea. It's a combination. You have this, I have this and this comes together. And so I love what you're saying.
David Hall [00:43:51]:
But yeah, it can be a struggle to share a half baked idea. Extroverts are better at that because they're thinking out loud and they're, they're sharing their process as they go and we're, we're often trying to fully form our ideas, but that's not always going to be possible. So that's, that's some good advice.
Tim Yeo [00:44:09]:
Yeah, it's just a different way of processing information. You know, I found myself in some cases having to think out loud. Because in that scenario that's better. It works better for me.
David Hall [00:44:21]:
Yeah.
Tim Yeo [00:44:22]:
It's just that most of the time I think in my head before I speak.
David Hall [00:44:25]:
Yes. And that's so important. It's, it's like most of the time you think in your head. Sometimes you do think out loud, sometimes I do think out loud. But it's, it's important to understand what happens most of the time and where you might struggle and how you can, you know, overcome that struggle.
Tim Yeo [00:44:45]:
And for the managers and the leaders, people are responsible for forming teams who are listening to this podcast. No matter how hard you try, it's gonna be the, the people that you hire that on your teams, they're gonna be a mix of different personalities.
David Hall [00:45:01]:
Yes.
Tim Yeo [00:45:02]:
Same, same people are gonna produce same, same ideas. You're gonna have no conflict because everyone has the same homogeneous idea. But if you want how many times the best ideas that succeed are the ones that are different, the ones that stand out. And I found in my experience, the way that you get that is actually to have very different kinds of people bringing diverse ideas to the table from different experiences that you can draw upon. The challenge is that when you do have different people, whether it's extroverts or introverts, people from different parts of the world, you then have to find a way to make all these different kinds of people work well together. And one of the ways I found to do that is this, this. Why is it that when you ask a question in the meeting, you immediately start talking? Some people need a bit more time. So what I started doing back, what I started doing at work in meetings is I might ask a question.
Tim Yeo [00:45:58]:
All right, we're going to spend maybe the next half an hour in this meeting coming up ideas to fix problem X. But before we actually start talking about it, why not let's take two, maybe three minutes to just quietly write down our ideas individually on our own. And then after that, two or three minutes, we can then go around the room and then talk about those ideas.
David Hall [00:46:19]:
Yeah.
Tim Yeo [00:46:20]:
So if you think about it, in a 30 minute meeting, simply giving the whole group, whether you talk to think or whether you think before you talk, just Simply taking that two to three minutes is less than 10% of the whole meeting. If you just take that small amount of time and you let different kinds of people just write down their ideas first and then you go around and talk about it. I think what you'll find is that you'll hear a diverse range of ideas because the people who actually need a bit more time to process their thinking, they'll be ready to speak up because they've already had those ideas written down. And those people that talk to think they also have their ideas ready. They're now all on the equal platform and ready to share. But oftentimes we don't see this. You go into a meeting, they ask a question and maybe one, maybe two voices dominate a room full of 10 people and everybody else is quiet. So small things like that, small things like that that you can do can help you get the best out of your people on the team.
Tim Yeo [00:47:25]:
I found.
David Hall [00:47:27]:
Yeah. And it's so important to remember that we all have different personalities and it's a good thing. It's. We just need to have some understanding and come up with some strategies that will help everybody. So I love that. Tim, this has been a great conversation. Is there anything else you want to share today?
Tim Yeo [00:47:46]:
If you enjoyed this podcast and the stuff that I shared. My name is Tim Yeoh. I wrote a book called the Quiet Achiever that's available on Amazon as an ebook, paperback, hardback, as also available as an audiobook on Audible and Spotify and also in all good book stores everywhere. If you like this podcast, definitely check out my book. I also run the Quiet Achiever School and I also have a newsletter. If you want to find out more about me, you can always Google for Tim yo the Quiet Achiever. I found out you can even ask ChatGPT or ask AI your favorite AI bot about Tim Yo. Tell me more about Tim yo the Quiet Achiever.
Tim Yeo [00:48:26]:
Yeah, and you'll be able to tell you more. I also coach. I coach people one on one. If it's of interest again, check out my website, the Quiet Achiever Coaching. But yes, David, it's been a really fun conversation. Thank you so much for this opportunity.
David Hall [00:48:39]:
Yeah, thanks again, Tim. Thank you so much for joining me. I appreciate you. I hope you take the time to explore other episodes and learn from other amazing guests. Remember, if you're interested in getting to know yourself better, there is now a free TYP Finder personality assessment on the Quiet and Strong website. This free assessment will give you a brief report including the four letter Myers Briggs code. I'll add a link in the show notes and I'd love to connect with you. Reach out to daviduyanstrong.com or check out the quietandstrong.com website, which includes blog posts and links to social media.
David Hall [00:49:15]:
For quiet and strong and much more. Send me topics or guests you would like to see on the show. So many great things about being an introvert and so we need those to be understood. Get to know your introverted strengths and needs and be strong.