The Quiet and Strong Podcast, Especially for Introverts
The Quiet and Strong Podcast, Especially for Introverts
Ep 257 - Everyday Leadership for People Pleasing Introverts with guest Dr. Melissa Jenner
Are you an introvert who finds yourself saying "yes" too often, striving to please others at the expense of your own boundaries? In this episode of The Quiet And Strong Podcast, host David Hall is joined by Dr. Melissa Jenner, author, leadership expert, and the founder of People Pleasing Introverts, for an empowering conversation on how introverts can embrace leadership without sacrificing their authenticity or energy.
Listen in to learn practical tools for identifying your strengths, managing people-pleasing tendencies, building self-awareness through reflection, and setting healthy boundaries in your work and life. Dr. Melissa Jenner shares her journey from people-pleasing perfectionism to confident and effective leadership, emphasizing that introversion is a strength, not a limitation. You'll hear actionable strategies on communicating your needs, addressing imposter syndrome, speaking up in meetings, and empowering your team as an introverted leader.
If you're ready to break free from self-doubt, embrace your natural gifts, and redefine what leadership looks like for introverts, this episode is for you. Tune in for inspiration, insight, and strategies to step confidently into leadership—just as you are.
…and be strong.
Episode Link: QuietandStrong.com/257
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As an introvert in leadership, Dr. Melissa Jenner understands the challenges technical professionals face. She advanced quickly—becoming a branch head before 30 and an executive before 40—but initially relied on overworking, people-pleasing, and perfectionism to prove herself. Through her experience, research, and a PhD in Business Administration, she discovered the truth: introversion is not a weakness in leadership—it is a strength. Now, as the founder of People-Pleasing Introverts, Dr. Jenner helps professionals break free from self-doubt, set boundaries, and lead with confidence.
Connect with Melissa: Facebook | Linkedin | Website
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Contact the Host of the Quiet and Strong Podcast:
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Minding Your Time: Time Management, Productivity, and Success, Especially for Introverts
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:00:00]:
It's that reflection where you set yourself up for, okay, when this happens in the future again, what am I going to do? What step am I going to take? And that works even when you're, you're getting yelled at. How do I handle conflict? How do I handle confrontation? How do I handle negative criticism? How do I want to take that in? How do I want to process that? All of that can set you up for the future, and it's just simply through reflection.
David Hall [00:00:34]:
Hello and welcome to episode 257 of the Quiet and Strong podcast, especially for introverts. I'm your host David hall and the creator of quietandstrong.com this is a weekly podcast dedicated to understanding the strengths and needs of introverts along with strategies for success. Introversion is not something to fix, but to be embraced. Normally, we will air each episode on a Monday. Be sure to subscribe on your favorite platform, leave a review or a rating. That would mean a lot to me and also help others find the show, tell a friend about the podcast and help get the word out there that introversion is a beautiful thing. As an introvert in leadership, Dr. Melissa Jenner understands the challenges technical professionals face.
David Hall [00:01:15]:
She advanced quickly, becoming a branch head before 30 and an executive before 40, but initially relied on overworking, people pleasing and perfectionism to prove herself. Through her experience, research and a PhD in business administration, she discovered the truth. Introversion is not a weakness in leadership, it is a strength. Now, as the founder of people pleasing introverts, Dr. Jenner helps professionals break free from self doubt, set boundaries and lead with confidence. All right, well, welcome to the Quiet and strong podcast, Dr. Melissa Jenner. Melissa, it's so good to have you on today.
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:01:53]:
Thank you. I appreciate this opportunity.
David Hall [00:01:56]:
We're going to get into your book and the great work you're doing. First, tell us a little bit about yourself.
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:02:02]:
Sure. So, as you said, My name is Dr. Melissa Jenner and I've been working in the government space for over 25 years in financial management and government and budgeting and accounting. But I am also a people pleasing introvert. And so that's the heart of my work is helping other people get into leadership as introverts and overcome the people pleasing habits and break free of those cycles.
David Hall [00:02:28]:
Very nice. So when did you figure out you were an introvert yourself?
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:02:33]:
Oh, that goes way, way back of my active duty Air Force days. So as an introvert it was great work being in financial management because I was part of a team, but I got to work independently, did my work Every day until they put me in customer service and decided that I was now going to lead the team. So then I started working on figuring out how to be a leader. I didn't know what to do. When you're 20 years old, you don't know what to do. And so as I research and I research, I realized that the common leadership approaches in that time, transformational, transactional, autocratic, democratic, they just were incongruent with my personality type. And that's when I realized that, oh, I'm an introvert. I am different.
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:03:19]:
I need space and time to make decisions, to plan my day, to process information, and then to tell the team what I need them to do.
David Hall [00:03:27]:
Yeah. So with that, did you also figure out your strengths as an introvert?
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:03:33]:
I did, I did. So that's when I realized that I'm very analytical and I'm very detail oriented. And I think the other strength that we have as an introvert is that we're intuitive. So we not only hear what you're saying and listen, but we also read into what you're saying to understand your emotions and what you need. And that's very important for customer service. It's not something that you can necessarily train people to do, but you can help them. You can connect better with your customers. Because obviously if they're coming to us for something, it's something about their pay or their money that's wrong that they want you to help them fix.
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:04:10]:
And so that can be devastating for a family, especially in the military environment. And so that was really a strength is learning to listen and helping other people become perceptive as well.
David Hall [00:04:21]:
Yeah, very nice. And on this show we definitely talk about the strengths and needs of introverts, but we also bust myths. Is there a myth that you want to bust today?
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:04:32]:
Absolutely. So there's this myth that only extroverts are amazing leaders or good leaders. But quite honestly, introverts are just as amazing, if not even better leaders as well. Because introverts have what it takes to bring people together. We create a safe environment for our team members to talk, to be themselves, to express themselves, and even create a safe environment for them to shine and to blossom. And sometimes that gets overlooked by our extroverted counterparts that are focusing on mission and execution vice, where we try to balance mission, execution and team members feelings and emotions.
David Hall [00:05:14]:
Yeah. And we're definitely going to get more into that, into leadership and leadership for introverts. But that's a big one that we bust on this show. Introverts can be amazing leaders. But often the path to success is going to look different. You know, we're going to take a different approach, we're going to need different things and have different strategies. But yeah, that's a big one. So you've written a book, Everyday Leadership for People Pleasing Introverts.
David Hall [00:05:39]:
So what inspired you to write that?
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:05:42]:
Honestly, it just came from all the work I've been doing and I felt like it was time to document it and put it in one place. But my hope really is with the book is that I'd be able to expand the audience and encourage people to. That you're not alone and that you should go into leadership. If you're what I call a powerhouse reserve and you're there and you know what you're doing and you're confident, but you just won't take that step into leadership because you think you don't belong and you can't do it. I want you to push past that and go into it. There's so many things that we don't have to change, who we are or our personality or characteristics to lead well and to do a good job. We just need to fine tune them and become aware of our courts and our nature.
David Hall [00:06:27]:
Yeah. So tell us more about people pleasing. What is it? What's the problem?
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:06:34]:
Well, you know, it's, it's so simple, but it's so complex all at the same time. So it starts when you think about your childhood. So for me, what was, how was I a good kid? Well, I was a good kid because I did what my parents wanted me to do. Right. Every time they said do this, do that, brush your teeth, comb your hair, whatever, so long as you're obedient. Right then I'm pleasing them and they're happy. When I'm disobedient, they're unhappy. And so it starts, it started there is the people pleasing and then when you go into the work environment, you start learning the work culture and what do you want to do when you get into that school and work environment? You want to fit in, you want to belong.
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:07:16]:
So now you start conforming to do that. How do you, how do you please the teachers? How do you please your boss? And that eventually will culminate to the point where you almost lose your identity. And that's what, that's where people pleasing can become complex. And so it works really well for us introverts because we become this super reliable person, the super helpful one. We're always the first one to volunteer. Oh yeah, I'll help, I'll do It I'll study late, I'll take it on. We don't say no, but if we keep doing that, we'll lose our own identity. And that's where it's important to learn how to speak up as an introvert in a way that feels safe in an environment where you feel safe to do that.
David Hall [00:07:58]:
Yeah. So how do we do that? How do we do the right work, but also set appropriate boundaries?
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:08:06]:
So it starts with you. Right. So when we work together, I usually tell my folks, let's start with your values. What are your values? What are your goals? What do you want to do in life? And it's important that you set goals and that you have this roadmap for where you want to go. And it's okay if we deviate and we go on vacations and we take detours, but we want to have some things that we want to accomplish. Because if you look at life and work, you can work all day long and that checklist will never go away. Tomorrow you'll still have a new checklist, might be the same checklist. And I think that's what happens to us as introverts.
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:08:45]:
We get caught up in the work life. And so when we start, or as people pleasers even. And so the way to move past that is to start setting some goals, keeping your focus on things that you wanted to accomplish outside of work as well as inside of work, then working towards that. And then as you start doing that, you'll naturally be able to say, oh, you know what, I've got to go to a dance class at 6pm tonight, I can't stay late tonight, or I've got dinner with some friends, or I've got another meeting here after work. And so when you start breaking away, then you'll start naturally at work, starting to show up and say, okay, my job is this. And in my eight hour day I'm going to work on this, this and this. And now if I can't, if somebody brings something else to me, I might say, you know what, I can't take that on today, but I can help you with this on Friday, or I might not be the person that can help you with on this. Sue might be able to help you on this because she's the expert.
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:09:45]:
So then you start speaking up in a way where you're still being helpful, but you're protecting your own time.
David Hall [00:09:51]:
Yeah, I think that's a big piece of it, is the goals are also priorities. Because it sounds like me that you've been in that place where You've tried to do everything right and I've tried that and it doesn't work because we, we can only do so much. And so it's really important to set goals and priorities to figure out what do I want to accomplish. And that means I'm not going to do this, even if someone's asking me to do this. But like you said, you know, have strategies where, hey, this person would be better at this or I'm focused on this right now, that kind of thing.
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:10:29]:
But you know what, I feel like when you're honest with people, even if they don't like your answer, they're far more accepting of it than when you just take it on and then you don't deliver.
David Hall [00:10:41]:
Right, right. Yeah. And that can happen when we take on too much, then we're not doing anything. Well, sometimes that's true.
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:10:51]:
That's true. And then, and then that looks like we're a bad employee. That can have that negative connotation where, oh, I gave her this five days ago, but she didn't deliver it. So if you set that expectation up front and you speak up and you learn how to do that, it starts making your life a lot simpler and then you start protecting your own time, your energy and your voice.
David Hall [00:11:11]:
Yeah, absolutely. So how do we become self aware and learn our strengths and needs, especially as introverts?
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:11:20]:
So my favorite tool is reflection. It's so simple to be your own Monday morning quarterback. And I think that's. It's just a couple of questions. I use three, three questions. And I just, what was the situation? What did I do well in this situation and how do I want to handle it in the future? There's no judgment. It's just more about what was it, what did I do good, because I should highlight the things where I excelled. Where do I need to improve? And that's the part where, what am I going to do in the future? I feel like if you think about that, then you can set yourself up for success because next time the situation happens, you're ready to respond.
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:12:03]:
A quick example is that when I was in the Air Force, I had to call 91 1. My supervisor was having a heart attack. Well, on the base, for some reason I thought we hadn't practiced. I just thought, well, there must be a number to call 911 on the base. Just don't dial 91 1. So I asked, what's the number for 91 1? Well, it happened to be 91 1, but that was a few seconds that I wasted where I could have just dialed the number because I was afraid of being wrong. It's that fear of judgment, that wanting to fit in. And so when I did that reflection had the similar situation almost 20 years later where I had to call 911.
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:12:43]:
Obviously I just picked up the phone and did it. But it's that reflection where you set yourself up for, okay, when this happens in the future, again, what am I going to do? What step am I going to take? And that works even when you're, you're getting yelled at. How do I handle conflict? How do I handle confrontation? How do I handle negative criticism? How do I want to take that in? How do I want to process that all of that can set you up for the future? And it's just simply through reflection.
David Hall [00:13:11]:
Yeah. I often say that that's one of our superpowers. So reflection. And the other thing is as, as we, as I get to know introverts, you know, we're not all the same, we have many different gifts. But I think that's a common strength that we all have. I think we, that's, that's something that we can really bring to leadership, is reflecting. And I love that you started with what went well because that's so important. You know, you have to acknowledge that you're doing some great work and not start with beating yourself up.
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:13:42]:
Right, yes. And we tend to take our inadequacies and internalize them because we're comparing ourselves to other people. And so that's where I try to take that out of the equation. Let's focus on what I'm doing. Well, what are you doing? Well, and then how do we improve? And the standard of measure is yourself and the expectation for the thing that you're trying to accomplish, not what other people are doing or how other people would do it.
David Hall [00:14:09]:
Yeah, yeah. Comparison is not usually very effective because we have our own, our own gifts and strengths and we need to keep getting better in them and not try to be somebody else. So you also talk about imposter syndrome. What is that? That's kind of related to what we're talking about.
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:14:29]:
Absolutely. So it's actually, that's a spot on question because psychologists, clients and IMEs on their study for high performing women basically found that men experience the same thing. It's this anxiety, it's this frustration, it's this feeling of, I'm not good enough, I don't belong here, I'm not smart enough, I don't know what I'm doing. And so we take these inadequacies and we internalize them and. And they're just standards that. False standards that we've imposed on ourselves through comparison of other people. And really, what it is, it's just simply a season. It's a season where we're learning and we're growing because we're in a new environment.
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:15:12]:
And so we're already qualified to be in that space through the hiring process. And we just have to understand that and that all things in life, there are seasons. And so that frustration that we initially feel when we're going through imposter syndrome, we just need to accept it, embrace it, and keep moving forward, but not focus on the negative. Focus on the fact that there's going to be a moment where I'm going to understand my job with clarity, and I'm going to be extremely capable and confident in it. I'm going to understand the key players and the people, and I'm going to know how to deal with them and how to talk to them and who they are and what they do, and there's going to be a moment where I'm going to get to that level. And so I just need to work through this season because I'm just stretching and growing. That's an important reminder, because if you get lost in the anxiety and the frustration, you really will have that imposter syndrome. You really won't belong, and there's no amount of work that will get you out of it.
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:16:11]:
But if you embrace the fact that it's just a season, you can work through it and get to the part where you want to be, where you are fitting in, where you deserve that seat at the table. But you also have to believe in yourself. You have to know that you take away the. I feel like there's this veil that people put on themselves that they don't belong, that I shouldn't be at the table, I'm not smart enough. But you've got to realize you were hired, somebody picked you to do that job, and that's what you're there to do. And now you just got to focus on doing the job.
David Hall [00:16:44]:
Yeah. And it goes back to the comparison. You know, look at your own strengths and what you're bringing. And we. Most teams are made up of many different personalities, and the comparison really can be damaging. But if you can learn to embrace your strengths, but also learn to understand other people's strengths, that that's where we can all live authentically.
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:17:10]:
Absolutely. And we don't have to do everything. We don't have to be perfect in everything. And it's okay to be imperfect. One of the things that we talk about is muting yourself. How many things, how many parts of yourself do you mute to fit in? And so, you know, if you like bird watching, that might be a commonality that you might have with somebody else. Or if you like baking, that might be another commonality. And so you should share those things, be your authentic self.
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:17:38]:
And it's okay to be different.
David Hall [00:17:40]:
Yeah, for sure. We've been talking about leadership. So tell us what makes a great leader. And also you talk about that we need to harness our inner leader.
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:17:51]:
Absolutely. So a good leader is someone that leads themselves. Well, that's the first thing. If you can't lead yourself well, then you probably shouldn't lead other people. And a lot of times we get thrown into that fire of leading other people, and we might not be leading ourselves well, but if somebody picked you for that position in leadership, then that means somebody felt that you are actually leading yourself well. And so once you're doing that, it's really about consistency in your character and how you show up with your actions and how you communicate. And so character and communication, I feel, are the two biggest keys to being a great leader. And just a quick example of that is if you're frustrated.
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:18:33]:
When you're frustrated as an employee and you have an outburst. Yeah, that's a fleeting moment. People typically don't think too much about it. They're like, oh, she was just frustrated that day. No big deal. But when you're frustrated and you're in leadership and you have an outburst, now you have torn down all those that trust and professional relationship that you've worked so hard to build, because in that one moment, you turn that safe space into an unsafe space. And now you're inconsistent with your emotions and with your reaction. And so your team's now wondering, well, is she going to have another bad day tomorrow? Is she going to lash out tomorrow? What's happening? And so it's so important to control your emotions, control your frustrations, and that's what.
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:19:19]:
And you do that with your character, and that's. And how you communicate.
David Hall [00:19:26]:
Yeah. Talk more about frustrations as a leader, I know this is. You write about this in your book.
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:19:31]:
Absolutely. So when you. So I feel like frustrations, you can't get away from it. It's inevitable it's going to happen. You're going to encounter it. But I encourage folks to look at it from the part that it's a trigger. That's the awareness. That's that thing inside of you that's telling you something is wrong.
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:19:51]:
And so one of the things I talk about is you get that awareness. And the first thing when you're in it is you just need to take a deep breath, pause, and breathe. Remember to breathe, because when you're mad, your heart's racing, you've got emotions running through your head. So you've just got to remember to breathe, excuse yourself from this situation, and then come back and think about it. Think about it as a problem that you need to solve. Why am I frustrated? What's causing this reaction? Is there an unmet expectation? Because all frustration stems from unmet expectations. And so if you can understand what expectations not being met, then you can figure out how to address it. And then the way to address it is simply communicating.
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:20:35]:
And one of the ways in the book that I talk about a good way to communicate with your team is through ace accountability. Communication with empathy and enthusiasm.
David Hall [00:20:46]:
Yeah, that's great. So what do you say to the introvert that wants to move into leadership, but they're not sure how to do that?
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:20:55]:
Oh, my goodness. Definitely take the leap of faith and do it. But I think it's really just more about learning, harnessing your own communication. Right. Learning how to. So there's a couple of things. On the outside, we can look more confident by the way that we stand, by the way that we dress, by the way that we present ourselves. But then you also have to know on the inside that you are the technical professional and that you have the capability to lead people forward.
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:21:25]:
So now the part that you need to do is harness your introversion strengths of understanding people, listening, creating that safe environment, that space where people can express themselves. It's okay that I think 1. I think the one problem that leaders struggle with is control. And you have to relinquish that control. If you can clearly explain your expectations and help people get on track to meet your expectations, then you should turn over that control into empowerment to allow them to thrive in your space. And that's how you really lead, in my opinion. I took a job when I can walk out of the space and my team can take over without me. They don't need my direction.
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:22:11]:
They don't need my guidance. They know what to do. They're in charge, and they're in control. But it's a journey to get there. And I think that's just really the goal, is that you're trying to empower other people to do well.
David Hall [00:22:24]:
Yeah, for sure. And you mentioned communication, and this was a big aha. For me, when I was learning that I was an introvert, and, you know, it's. It's when I was younger, I definitely thought something was wrong with me, right? And it's. It was that I. I got certified to give the Myers Briggs and the facilitator said, introverts think and then speak. Extroverts speak in order to think. I'm like, yes, that, that's the truth.
David Hall [00:22:52]:
And often, you know, we're. We're thinking and it's. It's a natural process. It's not something we choose. We're thinking and then we're sharing. You know, we're putting all our thoughts together and we're sharing what we think is most important. And extroverts are thinking out loud. A lot of it.
David Hall [00:23:09]:
Most of the time. Most of the time. Not all the time, but most of the time. And if you don't understand that, there can be a lot of conflict because someone might think, well, that person's being quiet, you know, and. And somebody else might say, that person's talking too much. And it's, it's really, it's just natural for both of us. But we need to understand that. How do leaders understand that? Introverts and extroverts on their teams?
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:23:33]:
When you're an introverted leader, you have that natural intuition, right? And it's really just about getting to know people and meeting them where they are. And then I truly believe that it comes from relationship building. And that takes time. And that's where I feel like introverted leaders succeed, because we take the time to get to know our teams and not just from a work environment. So it's not what are your strengths at work and what are your weaknesses, but we also get to know you as a person. What do you like to do? And so when you embrace that and you publicly embrace that with the team. So we know that so. And so is an extrovert.
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:24:14]:
We know that so. And so, you know, is an introvert. We know that. So one of the things I love to do with my team is sit down and figure out, how do you like. And we talk about this as a team. How do you like to communicate? Do you prefer email or do you prefer me to walk up and come tell you in person, or do you want a chat? And so we talk about the things that we. How we prefer to communicate with each other. We talk about our nuances.
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:24:39]:
We embrace it. We know when certain people, when they're nervous, you know, and so we take a family approach to that. Where we embrace all the different things we pointed out, we highlight it and we just make sure that they're comfortable. And I think that's what you do to really get your team so they can feel empowered and they can move forward. We just, we continue to communicate. It's very open, very clear, clear communication and fun. We have fun. I feel like if you have fun with your team, they'll bond.
David Hall [00:25:15]:
Introverts can have fun.
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:25:17]:
We can have fun. We have all kinds of fun, you know, but you can, it's easy to, I think when you're, when you get into that kind of environment and I can poke fun at myself, right. And then the team can get on, on track with that. And if I call out my extrovert counterparts, you know, for being loud, and I'm like, okay, so that was 10 minutes, I can't get back, you know, but if I do it in a very jokingly way, you know, we do it, we all have fun together. And I think it's also about using my extroverts to be loud. Right. There are situations where my extroverts thrive in briefing, providing safety trainings, providing briefings. Right.
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:25:56]:
Sharing information and so putting them in those situations where they can thrive and, you know, be at the forefront and lead. I'm happy to put them in those situations.
David Hall [00:26:07]:
Yeah. When you were talking another, it just brought up another myth that we bust regularly is introverts don't like people, which is crazy thing. But as you were talking about getting to know your employees, not only do we like people, but we excel at one on one and deeper relationships. And so the introverted leader can get to know their, the people that are working for them in a deep way. And like you said, you know, get to know them at work, get to know them outside of work and really build that relationship. And when you have that relationship, you can joke and say, hey, that's 10 minutes, I won't get back. But you have to have a relationship to do things like that.
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:26:48]:
Yes, yes. And food helps. We all like food. I haven't met a person that doesn't like peanut M&Ms. Yet.
David Hall [00:26:56]:
Yeah, those are good. Do you have any other advice for introverts succeeding at work?
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:27:03]:
Absolutely. I think the first thing is raise your hand and say what's on your mind? I think that's the first step because if you stay quiet, people don't know what you're thinking. And I, and I tell my team this all the time. I am not a mind reader. As much as I try to perceive and Try to anticipate what I think you're going to think and feel and how you're going to, how you want to see things. I don't know if you don't tell me. And I think that's the trouble with introverts, even though we're trying to take in the information in a meeting. That's why I encourage folks to use thought bridges.
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:27:41]:
So you can say something like one thing I was thinking about is and then share your thought or one thing that I'm working on or you know, trying to understand is and then share that thought. That doesn't have to be perfect. But if you start sharing what you're thinking and what you're feeling, then your leaders can help understand what you need better and provide you with the resources or provide you with the clarifying guidance, whatever it is. And I think that's the first step an introversion is just raise your hand and start saying what's on your mind and using a safe thing like a thought bridge and then a prompt follow up with something like what are your thoughts on that? Or can you help me understand why you said that? Things like that, just very simple questions will help to start the conversation. And most times if you just raise your hand and you open your mouth and you start, somebody will come back and say something. Right? They'll help you. Well, we can't know what you're thinking if you don't talk to us.
David Hall [00:28:37]:
No, that's for sure. How do introverts prepare for that meeting to speak up?
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:28:43]:
So I think it's very easy if you know what the meeting's about. You have your bullets already and you know what you want to say. But a lot of times what happens is you kind of get into a meeting and you're, it goes off track, we go in down side rabbit holes and all that kind of stuff and you have something to say, you have a thought, you might even be feeling an emotion, but you're not sure what to say. And so that's where I would say something. I encourage a thought bridge. And that thought bridge is one thing I'm thinking about is. And then you say it. And so that way your mind doesn't seize up.
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:29:18]:
You know, we all have that flight or fight response. When we raise our hand, we're like, and our body's like no, no, no. If you say that you're going to be stupid, they're going to think you're dumb because that fear of judgment kicks in. And so it's just a matter of if I give you a statement to say already after you raise your hand, then everything else should just flow out after that.
David Hall [00:29:38]:
Yeah, for sure. And you know, definitely I give the advice that, you know, speak as early as you can in the meeting so people know that you're engaged and that you do have something to share and that, you know, they're not going to just tell themselves stories if you don't speak. You know, they don't have anything to say.
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:29:58]:
True. And the other part is that sometimes we're very strict, we try to stick to 30 minute meetings. And so if you don't get in, then come back with your question afterwards or come back with your thought afterwards and just provide it on email.
David Hall [00:30:13]:
Yeah, that's a great point. And I. This is for leaders. Make it, make that okay. Again, if I'm, if I'm coaching an introvert, I'm going to say try your best to share your idea in the meeting while the conversation is happening. But you know, we are going to think of things afterward or maybe we didn't get a chance to speak, share them afterwards. For sure. And that again, leaders need to make that okay to do that.
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:30:41]:
Absolutely.
David Hall [00:30:43]:
Had a guest on my show and he said, you know, for the big decisions, he gave a, he gave a time period like where people could respond after the meeting. You know, sometimes you have to make quick decisions and you don't have time to wait. But you know, for, for decisions where you can take a little time, you know, definitely let the introverts think on it. And you know, I know most of my great decisions have been made over time. Not, not really instantly.
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:31:12]:
Absolutely, absolutely. And if you have the time, set the time right. We try to plan as much as we can. You know, here's the information. Deadline tomorrow.
David Hall [00:31:22]:
Yeah, deadlines are important, you know, because we do like to think about things and sometimes we think too much and too long. But a deadline, you know, give, give, give some time, but put a deadline there too.
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:31:34]:
Yes.
David Hall [00:31:36]:
Do you have any other advice for.
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:31:37]:
Introverted leaders besides getting to know the team? Building your character. Building your character is huge. I think that that is the number one thing for a leader is your character, whether you're introverted or extroverted. And it's not necessarily, it's being authentic to yourself. Right. Unmuting those parts that you hide. It's being consistent in your actions and your approach. And so I typically use the courage framework to guide folks into leadership into building that character through commitment and optimism.
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:32:12]:
It's that mindset, building unity with your team. It's building in a practice of reflection, not just with yourself, but with your team. I do that with my team a lot. We'll do projects together, and then we'll come back and we'll reflect together. And so it's also adopting that attitude of gratitude, being adaptable, recognizing that there's no actual leadership approach that works for introverted leaders and that you can just use piece parts of each approach. Right. So if it's a, you know, you've got a survey that you want to go out, you might take more of a democratic approach. What are the right questions to gather information for this survey? You know, but if I've got a quick emergency and I need to make a decision, an autocratic approach is more applicable there.
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:33:00]:
And so just use the right leadership approach that works for the situation. And like I said before, relinquish that need for control and identify the strengths in your team and encourage them to move into their strengths and to operate in that and keep building on them. Right. Find their weaknesses and help them build on that, too. And pair people together. They often like to pair people together so that they strengthen each other. And so I think those are all the big things. It's just that character.
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:33:29]:
It's your approach. So every job you go to, you'll pretty much see me do kind of the same things, the same places, just different people. Right. That focus on gratitude and just being thankful.
David Hall [00:33:40]:
Yeah. That's all. That's some great advice. One more question for you. How do you manage your energy as an introvert?
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:33:49]:
You know, that's an interesting question. So I'll say this. Managing your energy, I definitely, just like everybody else, it's got the highs and the lows. Some days I'm like, amazing at it, and some days I'm not. I think that myth that introverts need to be by themselves and we need to have quiet time all the time and this, that, and the next. I think that's hit or miss. I think it really just depends on the person. But for me personally, I always plan a vacation every year, and I completely disconnect for a week.
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:34:23]:
So there's no cell phone, there's no work, there's nothing. There's nobody, just whoever. I'm on vacation with, my husband, typically. And so that's one way that I just recharge and reconnect and refocus. But I also take time for myself. I take time at the beginning of the day to make sure that I know the things I need to accomplish, how I'm going To manage my team and. And I shut it down. I really do create.
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:34:48]:
I have an end of the day and then I. I stop now if something happens. Obviously when you're in a leadership position, you can never totally walk away. But I do walk away from work at the end of the day, and I make life a priority. So I have other things in life that I focus on, such as going to church and, you know, fun activities outside of work. We have family fun day on the weekends, which consists of lots of artwork. But it's fun to me. So, you know, but it's just, it's having a life.
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:35:19]:
It's having a life outside of work. I think that's what. And engaging with people that bring energy into your life. So that's where I spend my time.
David Hall [00:35:28]:
Yeah. And so a lot of times I hear this definition, which I think is very lacking, and you kind of alluded to this too. Oh. The main difference between introverts and extroverts is that introverts, you know, get drained by people and need alone time to recharge. And for me, it's like, well, yeah, I do need some time to recharge, but also I need time for a lot of things. You know, the reflection that we were talking about, you know, being strategic, coming up with some plans and, you know, I don't always need to recharge alone. You know, it just depends on what's going on. So I just, I, you know, I don't think that definition is.
David Hall [00:36:12]:
Is a good one. I think that, you know, introverts, it means that we're deep thinkers. We're good at reflection. We do need some time for different things. We need our people too.
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:36:22]:
We do. And I feel like when you're making a positive impact in the world, that brings you energy. So when you're in interacting with folks and you enjoy interacting with them and you're doing something positive and you're feeling good about yourself, you don't necessarily need downtime. Right. That is building you up, and it's finding those things that you love to do and doing them.
David Hall [00:36:43]:
Yeah, yeah. I think that's such an important distinction. So if you are with someone and you're talking about something you're very passionate about, that might not be draining at all. When we get drained is when we stay in the shallow for too long. You know, maybe we're having small talk and it just is endless small talk and we want to get to something deeper. That's. That's what can be draining or, you know, just trying to Come up with things to say in the small talk can be draining, but we can get charged by other people, you know, when we're doing things that we're passionate about. So I love that.
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:37:16]:
Absolutely. Absolutely. Baking is one of my favorite hobbies, so having folks come over and bake with me, I love doing that.
David Hall [00:37:24]:
That sounds nice. What's that? Is there anything else you want to bring up today?
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:37:30]:
You know, I don't know that I have anything that I really wanted to share other than I just really want to encourage folks to step outside of their comfort zone. And I think a lot of the times the book has opened up an immense opportunity for me to meet an audience that I have not met before. And one of the common themes that I've heard from them is that they say they've taken other classes and people have told them to say no. From the people pleasing perspective, people say, well, just say no. Or from the introverted perspective, people say, well, just speak up more. And I kind of said that too. But the thing that I feel is really different, that you learn both from the book and from my courses or just even working with me, is that you don't change your personality to fit in. You highlight your personality and you let it shine as you move forward.
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:38:20]:
And so you don't have to say no by saying no. You can say no by offering to still help, but just in a different way. And you don't have to speak up by saying by having all the answers. Right. One thing I've been thinking about, I'm still working on it. I'm still processing. One thing I'm noodling over is one thing I need clarification on. Right.
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:38:42]:
So I don't have all the answers right this moment, but I need some help to get there. And I think when we start talking about speaking up in that light, it's a lot less scary because. Because I'm telling you up front, I don't know, but I need your help. I need some clarification. And I think that's where we're seeing breakthrough, because people are feeling more comfortable now that there's another way to do it. It's not a hard no, and it's not a I have to have all the answers.
David Hall [00:39:09]:
Yeah. And we can't really change our personality. It's pretty stable over our lifetimes. And as we've been talking about in this great conversation is you just need to learn to embrace your gifts and your strengths and live an authentic way and not try to be somebody else.
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:39:29]:
Absolutely. And that's what will bring other people. That'll just bring. Attract other people to you the more that you are your authentic self. And that's what I keep finding.
David Hall [00:39:40]:
Yeah. So where can people find out about the great work that you're doing?
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:39:46]:
Absolutely. So my website is People Pleasing introverts with an s.com so they can certainly find out all about me and my courses and the things that I'm doing. You can also set a free 15 minute consultation with me. I don't really call it a consultation, I kind of call it just a chat because sometimes I've had people just call and they ask a question and I just answer it and then they go on with life. So it's more of just I get to know you and how can I help you? I'm really passionate about watching people progress and move forward and so that's really it. LinkedIn. I'm, I'm on there as well and I do have a Facebook page. You do.
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:40:26]:
People pleasing introverts.
David Hall [00:40:27]:
All right, thanks again, Melissa.
Dr. Melissa Jenner [00:40:30]:
Absolutely. Thank you. It's my pleasure.
David Hall [00:40:34]:
Thank you so much for joining me. I appreciate you. I hope you take the time to explore other episodes and learn from other amazing guests. Remember, if you're interested in getting to know yourself better, there is now a free type finder personality assessment on the Quiet and Strong website. This free assessment will give you a brief report including the four letter Myers Briggs code. I'll add a link in the show notes and I'd love to connect with you. Reach out@daviduyanstrong.com or check out the quietandstrong.com website which includes blog posts and links to social media for quiet and strong and much more. Send me topics or guests you would like to see on the show.
David Hall [00:41:14]:
So many great things about being an introvert and so we need those to be understood. Get to know your introverted strengths and needs and be strong.