Ep 258 - Storytelling and Public Speaking with guest Lee Schneider

Have you ever wondered how introverts can harness their strengths to excel at storytelling and public speaking? In this episode of The Quiet And Strong Podcast, host David Hall is joined by guest Lee Schneider—an accomplished storyteller, educator, and introvert—who shares how thinking deeply, preparing intentionally, and focusing on unique perspectives empower introverts to shine in front of an audience.

Listeners will learn how introverts’ natural abilities—like keen focus, thoughtful preparation, and scenario planning—translate into powerful presentations and memorable stories. Lee Schneider busts common myths about introversion, explains how preparation and intentional pauses enhance public speaking, and discusses practical strategies for building confidence, whether pitching ideas, writing novels, or giving a keynote. You’ll also hear why storytelling is such a valuable skill for introverts and how podcasts offer a low-stress, high-impact way to share ideas.

Tune in for inspiration, actionable advice, and a celebration of the creative power introverts bring to storytelling and public speaking. Embrace your introverted strengths, learn new ways to share your voice—and be strong.

Episode Link: QuietandStrong.com/258

Lee Schneider draws on a multi-decade career in storytelling, media-making, and education to help architects, design professionals, and startup founders use storytelling to transform complex concepts into projects that get funded.

For more than 10 years, he has taught a popular graduate-level media-making class at the University of Southern California (USC) School of Architecture. He teaches a masterclass about public speaking for introverts.

Lee's Website: RedCupAgency.com

Connect with Lee on Socials: LinkedIn | Instagram

Transcript

Lee Schneider [00:00:00]:
Well, I would say let me think about that for a moment. Being an introvert, thinking before I speak. I think the myth is that you may not have much to share if you're not a very talkative person who's always contributing in meetings. And then someone says, we think you should give the presentation or you decide on your own, I want to give a talk. The imposter syndrome whiplash, you know, kickback. That happens as well. Maybe I have nothing to say or maybe I have nothing original to say and that of course stops you cold. But as an introvert, you've thought about things and you have a unique view, a unique take on things, and that's what is worth sharing.

David Hall [00:00:58]:
Hello and welcome to episode 258 of the Quiet and Strong podcast, especially for introverts. I'm your host David hall and the creator of Quiet and Strong dot com. This is a weekly podcast dedicated to understanding the strengths and needs of introverts along with strategies for success. Introversion is not something to fix, but to be embraced. Normally we will air each episode on a Monday, sure to subscribe on your favorite platform, leave a review or a rating that would mean a lot to me and help others find the show. Tell a friend about the podcast and help get the word out there that introversion is a beautiful thing. Lee Snider draws on a multi decade career in storytelling, media making and education to help architects, design professionals and startup founders use storytelling to transform complex concepts into projects that get funded. For more than 10 years he's taught a popular graduate level media making class at the University of Southern California School of Architecture.

David Hall [00:02:00]:
He teaches a masterclass about public speaking for introverts. All right, well, welcome to the Quiet and Strong podcast. Lee Lee, it's so good to have you on today.

Lee Schneider [00:02:09]:
It's great to be here.

David Hall [00:02:11]:
We're going to get into the work you're doing, especially with introverts and public speaking. Just tell us a little bit about yourself. Tell us about your journey to get to where you are now.

Lee Schneider [00:02:22]:
You know, I was thinking about that today and I really started as an avid teenage reader. I would read a couple of novels a week. In fact, my parents got me an account at the local bookstore and one summer I spent a thousand bucks on novels. You know, just paperbacks. And when you read that much, you start to think you get ideas. You know, maybe I could write something equally as good or better. So I was interested in plays and novels and continually writing ideas for short stories and I didn't focus on any one genre. But later I dialed in plays, screenplays, novels.

Lee Schneider [00:03:05]:
And, you know, the best way to sell an idea like that is to actually go in person to pitch it. And that's very hard. That I realized how hard that was for me as an introvert. I would have to go into a room of boisterous writers or producers and try to hold down the room while I explained this screenplay I wanted to write or this TV show I wanted to do. But I realized the value of it. You know, it put me in conflict. It definitely stressed me out. But it also was the best way to do it, better than sending in a script or something, a manuscript that would just be ignored and gather dust.

Lee Schneider [00:03:45]:
So I came to this realization that storytelling, if you're going to sell the stories, if you're going to do it for a living, you're going to have to work through some of the cliches that people tend to apply to introverts, like you don't like people very much, or you don't know how to express yourself, or you're afraid of large groups. And all of that is not true. But as I began to work with those things, I realized, well, if you want to sell stories, you're just going to have to do some of that. And as I became successful at it and did and got paid to do various kinds of storytelling, I've learned some of the patterns of what makes a good story. So that's put me where I am today. The, as I say, recovering television producer who is now teaching storytelling and presentation skills, as well as doing podcasts and writing novels and other forms of that. But for me, it's really been this journey of appreciating how to tell a story and then applying it to. To help other people realize their gifts in storytelling.

David Hall [00:04:58]:
Yeah, absolutely. And that's going to be a part of our. Our story today as we're talking about public speaking. But you mentioned that you've written some novels. Tell us just a little bit about that.

Lee Schneider [00:05:10]:
Well, I have, like. Like every novelist, I have a few novels in a drawer that will never come out. You know, I wrote them, they were okay, but I couldn't find the traction. I finished them. I have a few unfinished ones, too. But then I started writing what is now known as climate fiction. I got very interested in the issues around climate change, and I started noodling around on a story with Diag. I draw on pictures of.

Lee Schneider [00:05:37]:
I make diagrams. So I had a map kind of of the story. And we had some fires here in California. I live in Southern California, and we Couldn't go outside and I'm a runner, couldn't run. And it kind of shook me up and I realized my world is changing a lot. So I started writing. I've written a trilogy of three science fiction climate fiction novels and the last one came out about a month ago and starting a new trilogy. But I really like escaping into these fantasy worlds, worlds that I control.

Lee Schneider [00:06:15]:
Sometimes I'll come to the dinner table and my wife and child will look at me and they see that kind of thousand mile stare and they say, you're not really here yet, are you? And I say, yeah, well, I'm arriving but I'm still in my, my world of my characters. So I've really enjoyed that kind of long form writing where you get to dig into a story and your reader too spends, you know, a couple of weeks with the book. It's very gratifying when people like the books.

David Hall [00:06:44]:
Yeah. And you know, I'm sure extroverts can be great writers too, but definitely it's a, it's a gift we have as introverts to go deep. We have good imaginations and you know, we like using our imaginations and so that's really a skill that we can have as an introvert. And also we enjoy reading the science fiction and other, other novels.

Lee Schneider [00:07:08]:
Right. I mean, think of it. A writer spends a lot of time alone. You can write in groups. And there is the phenomenon now of sort of the zoom writers group where people will sign on to a zoom and you'll just have your camera on and you can watch other people writing or you can write in groups, but most of the time you're in a world of your own construction and you're by yourself and you don't want the interruptions. So yeah, it's very well suited to the introvert mind, that's for sure.

David Hall [00:07:37]:
Yeah. And you know, we don't want to be alone all the time, but sometimes we do and sometimes we need it and it really can give it, you know, be a gift for certain things like writing and other projects.

Lee Schneider [00:07:49]:
Sure.

David Hall [00:07:51]:
So let's just start there. Like when did you figure out you were an introvert?

Lee Schneider [00:07:54]:
I think it was probably at one or another office party. Know, I used to work, I'm from New York and I used to work in production in New York and there were, you know, we would be producing a news show or a cartoon and I would, I was often a writer, sometimes a producer on those shows and I really liked being in my office and writing the scripts and I liked the One on one meetings. But I began to realize, wow, these big office parties are kind of a strain, you know. And friends of mine who are more extrovert types would be, you know, party hopping, like, let's do three in a night. And I would be no. 1 and done, you know, maybe two. And you know, I never put a name to it, but that's probably when it occurred to me in that early work life.

David Hall [00:08:44]:
Okay, what would you say is a strength you have because you're an introvert?

Lee Schneider [00:08:49]:
I would say focus. You know, the ability to focus, be alone and really dig into stuff. You know, I, I like research, I like disappearing into things. When I was a news producer, I've worked for Dateline NBC and Good Morning America and local news and cable tv and a lot of times in those positions you just get thrown a thing. We want you to write something about undersea exploration. You're going to go out on a boat next week and we're going to do deep sea photography. It's like, okay. And then I would have to research that.

Lee Schneider [00:09:29]:
Well, that as the introvert I was like, let's dig in. You know, it was kind of fun for me. I imagine an extrovert would tackle it differently. They might get on the phone and call or email a lot of people and ask questions. But I was very happy with like give me a bunch of footage to review and log and sure, I'll call some people and talk to people. But I like to prepare, which is another, you know, I don't really like to wing it that much. And as an introvert, like enjoying preparation served me very well as a journalist because I could go into the interview or the production situation and, and know enough.

David Hall [00:10:08]:
Yeah, and that's a key for us, preparation. Not only is it a strength, but it's a necessity. You know, we're not always the best at thinking in our feet. And when I say that, I'd say we're not always because sometimes we come up with things on the spot, but often we do better with some preparation. Whether it be for a speech or a presentation or something. We do better with some preparation. And it's a gift that we have too.

Lee Schneider [00:10:34]:
Yeah, to have the patience. You know, so much of life comes down to project management. Whether it's, you know, being a parent, being a worker, being a spouse. And part of that be preparation is project management. Like what's the beginning, middle and end of what you need to get done? It's more than a to do list. It's kind of like a project Flow. And as an introvert, I feel gifted in that because I can really sit down and break stuff down. I'm willing to do it.

Lee Schneider [00:11:04]:
I don't want to go in. Well, let's see what happens. You know, I want to know what's going to happen. And in television production, particularly, wow. You know, there's a. There's a sentence that I can't say on this podcast, but it goes something like. It goes something like, assumption is the mother of messing up.

David Hall [00:11:24]:
Yeah.

Lee Schneider [00:11:25]:
You know, we learn. Never assume anything. Always have backups. Always have a plan B. Always know, if this. If someone didn't show up, what are you going to do about that? You know, And I think being an introvert, it prepared me for that kind of thinking.

David Hall [00:11:40]:
Yeah. And often it. It makes a better speech, it makes a better presentation. And, you know, like you said, I. I'm not that great at winging it either. You know, that's not going to be the best for me.

Lee Schneider [00:11:55]:
Well, it also helps to be a scenario builder, which is kind of gets into the storytelling ideas that, you know, we're. We're kind of what if people, like, what if I'm giving a talk? What if I forgot that part? Or what if I flipped these two parts? Or what if my slides went down and I didn't have slides? Well, those become. It can be anxiety inducing, but it also can be just thinking through, all right, if. If my clicker is not going to work, well, I'll just figure out a way to do it differently. Or if I forget a part. The funny thing about public speaking is if you forget a sentence or two of your talk, no one's going to know. No one's sitting there with a transcript of what you're supposed to say. It's only in your head.

David Hall [00:12:43]:
Right.

Lee Schneider [00:12:44]:
And I found 99% of the time, if I drop a line, I usually pick it up. You know, if I listen to myself later in a recording, I pick up that line elsewhere. The whole corpus makes it. It's just that I may not in. In kind of an improvisatory mode, I may miss something. But that's not that important because I'm the only one who really notices.

David Hall [00:13:05]:
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I think we might have busted some myths already, but is there any other introvert myths that you want to bust today?

Lee Schneider [00:13:14]:
You know, I. I'm very interested in the difference between shyness and introversion. And for me, I know that's a big topic and one that you've covered on the show, but for me, it has A lot to do with, if I have a function, if I have a job at a big noisy event, I'm not shy. That doesn't even enter into the picture. If I am setting an intention like I'm going to a networking event or I'm going when there used. When I used to sell television shows, we'd go to what's known as a television market. It'd be a huge hotel filled with people pitching TV shows and it could, you just have to go up to people and I could see as a shy person I'd be paralyzed. But as an introvert with a strategy, I could say I'm going to hand out five business cards this morning.

Lee Schneider [00:14:06]:
That's all. Just hand out five or meet five new people. In the context of pitching a TV show, you can do that. And I think that notion of kind of breaking out of our shell for limited purposes and for something that's important, we can do that. It's, it's not off the table.

David Hall [00:14:27]:
Yeah. And so it's not shyness. You know, introverts can be shy, but so can extroverts. I know shy, I know shy extroverts and what shyness is, it just means you lack confidence in something approaching somebody, approaching a situation. But you know, like you just said, there's some strategies you can develop. For me, I used to be shy, used to lack confidence and it was because I didn't understand that in general as an introvert I'm going to think first and then speak. I'm going to gather all my thoughts, I'm going to share what's most important and that's how I operate. And good stuff comes from that because again, we have good imaginations, we come up with good solutions and different things.

David Hall [00:15:12]:
Extroverts think out loud most of the time and you know, this is probably the case for you, but I don't often share half baked ideas. But the extrovert is not worried about that. They, they like to talk it out with other people and they start with an idea that's not fully formed and generally we don't do that.

Lee Schneider [00:15:34]:
That's true. Well, here's a funny thing. I, I often talk into a recorder, whether on my watch and that's my way of sharing hate half baked ideas with myself.

David Hall [00:15:46]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lee Schneider [00:15:47]:
I'll walk around and blab all these half baked ideas out and then I listen to them later and make sense of them. You know, I'm going back to my early work experiences in big production environments. I remember someone saying, lee doesn't speak up often in meetings, but when he does, we should listen to him. And that was true. I would get very kind of tongue tied in a large group meeting. But if I really had something to contribute, I learned that it was worth it to do it. You know, try.

David Hall [00:16:19]:
Yeah, that's. That's great. And that's where the name of the podcast came from. Somebody said something similar to me, you know, you're quiet and strong, you know, meaning that I didn't talk a lot. Which, it's funny because in my mind, I've overcome shyness. I'm confident, I'm talking as much as I want to, but I'm still not talking as much as an extrovert next to me. So the person said, you know, when you talk, people listen. And that's where the title of the podcast came from.

David Hall [00:16:48]:
And, you know, you've experienced that. And, you know, introverts, you can develop a reputation for having great ideas and you can have a reputation, you know, I may not be talking the most, but I, I do. I am thinking, and I have things to contribute.

Lee Schneider [00:17:05]:
Right. It's an interesting fact. And you've had some actors. The. There was a. A woman you had on who was a former actor now teaching, speaking.

David Hall [00:17:15]:
Right.

Lee Schneider [00:17:15]:
And she brought up a great point, which I was. I read independently a few days ago, that, you know, a lot of actors are introverts.

David Hall [00:17:22]:
Yeah.

Lee Schneider [00:17:23]:
Think of them as the very demonstrative and, you know, but they're in a role and they have lines and there's a lot of preparation involved. So it's actually a pretty good job for an introvert to be an actor.

David Hall [00:17:37]:
Yeah. And I, you know, half the population are introverts and probably half the pop out of actors, probably half. Or it could even be more. And, you know, another myth that I bust is sometimes we do like to perform and be in the spotlight. Sometimes people say introverts don't like to be in the spotlight and that I'm like, well, that's not true. I love it. You know, you know, it just depends on the situation. But.

David Hall [00:18:04]:
But, yeah, that's a good myth to bust that actors, I think a lot of comedians are introverts because they're really deep thinkers and look at the world and see their own views in the world. So what's a myth around public speaking and introversion? Because I know that's something that you're doing now, you're teaching about public speaking and introversion.

Lee Schneider [00:18:28]:
Well, I would say. Let me think about that for a moment. Being an introvert yes. Thinking before I speak. I think the, the myth is that you may not. You have much to share if you're not a very talkative person who's always contributing in meetings. And then someone says, we think you should give the presentation, or you decide on your own, I want to give a talk. The imposter syndrome whiplash, you know, kickback.

Lee Schneider [00:19:02]:
That happens as well. Maybe I have nothing to say or maybe I have nothing original to say, and that of course stops you cold. But as an introvert, you've thought about things and you have unique view, a unique take on things, and that's what is worth sharing. You know, so often, like, as a novelist, I've learned, you know, have people written books about the future before? Yeah, of course. Have people written books about AI before? Plenty, you know, plenty of them. But my book about the future in AI is going to be my book. It's going to be unique, so there. And I'm going to put a lot into it.

Lee Schneider [00:19:45]:
I'm going to think about it a lot. So it's going to have a unique view that's mine and presumably worth it for others. So I think it's kind of the, the imposter syndrome can. You can get pretty tangled up in that, especially if you think you have nothing unique to share. Like, it's all been said before, you know, when you hear, hear that people's doubts come up and maybe it almost has all been said before, but that shouldn't stop an introvert from sharing a fresh idea because it's from their perspective. So it's, it's never been heard before.

David Hall [00:20:23]:
Yeah. And another myth that we bust that goes along with this is that people say introverts don't have much to say. And like you're saying, sometimes people actually believe that as an introvert. But the truth is we have a lot to say because we're always thinking, we're always. So our ideas, even though they may be similar, they're. They. They can be fresh and new and, and we need some new and fresh ideas. Yeah.

Lee Schneider [00:20:47]:
What helps people sometimes is this idea of journaling or more what are sometimes called morning pages, where you open a. A journal or I have a digital one with a tough stylus and I just let it. I just write whatever comes to mind, even if I can think, if I say I can't think of anything to write today, I make myself write about four pages worth of stuff, and it generally starts to aim into what I need to work on today or the thing that I got stuck on. Or. And I'll do that also if I, like, I have to give a talk or I have to come up with a unique view of something or write a scene in a novel sometimes just to free associate writing and kind of vaguely guide myself, but not too much and just let it be loose like that.

David Hall [00:21:39]:
It's.

Lee Schneider [00:21:39]:
It's the extrovert's version of just kind of talking it out with another person. And dialoguing. It can be really valuable. And it just uses another part of the brain. You're using your hand. It works better when you're using a handwritten device. Doesn't work as well if you're typing. It's just a neurological thing where it's you.

Lee Schneider [00:22:00]:
You're going to tap into a different part of creative thinking when you're writing by hand. But I found that really helpful. And I mentioned earlier, you know, sometimes I will go for a walk because walking definitely stimulates the mind. And just record myself talking at length about whatever I need to work on or whatever it might be, and then listening back to that or making a transcript. You can get pretty far with that if you get stuck on the usual ways of coming up with a fresh idea.

David Hall [00:22:32]:
Yeah, definitely. And sometimes that fresh idea comes when we're not trying to think of it.

Lee Schneider [00:22:38]:
Well, that's, you know, that's the old shower bit.

David Hall [00:22:41]:
Exactly, exactly.

Lee Schneider [00:22:43]:
I've known people who have waterproof pencils and pens and pads, you know, they literally write it down in the shower. But I would say about 75% of my mornings, I need to write something down after, as soon as I get out of the shower.

David Hall [00:22:58]:
Yeah, yeah. My time is driving, like driving to work or something like that, where, you know, have the space to myself. Lee, you said something a moment ago. You told me, let me think about that. That is such a good introvert strategy because sometimes we need a moment and we just need to tell people, hey, yeah, give me a moment to think about that or I will tell you tomorrow, you know, whatever it is.

Lee Schneider [00:23:26]:
That's right. Well, I've. For the past almost decade now, I've been a podcast producer and editor. So I've listened to a lot of conversations and it's completely okay to pause while you think of something. It's fine. It can be edited out of a podcast or in a conversation. It's very natural. In fact, some of the best parts of the podcast I've edited, or when someone says, just let me think about that for a second, and I'll actually, as the editor, I'll leave the Pause in, like, that moment of someone going.

Lee Schneider [00:24:03]:
It's a dramatic moment, and you can even use that in public speaking when you're giving a talk. If you pause to think of something or pause for a moment before you say the most important thing or repeat the most important thing, it's very valuable. People kind of catches people for a moment. You're not just trying to fill every space or drone on. You wait for a moment. It also is a very good eraser. You know, the. The comes because you're probably talking a little faster than you can think, or your mind is trying to change gears or change direction.

Lee Schneider [00:24:40]:
But a pause is totally appropriate, and then you don't have to, and you sound more articulate.

David Hall [00:24:49]:
Yeah. And for some reason, you know, we've been made to think that that pause is bad, that silence is bad, but we need it. And like you did, we just need to ask for it sometimes.

Lee Schneider [00:25:01]:
Yeah. Well, go to. You know, I don't know if people are going to plays very often, but if you see a really good actor working or speaking the lines of a script in a movie or a play, look at the pauses. Listen to the pauses next time. You know, that's how they make it work. It's almost like a piece of music. There was a great Broadway actor that I directed for a voiceover in a. In a documentary, and he wrote almost like a musical notation of his own design on the script that had the pauses and the line where he would wait.

Lee Schneider [00:25:38]:
And he had just blocked that whole thing out in a very musical way that he could reproduce. And it included dramatic pauses that he put in because he knew they worked. He was a very experienced actor, you know, for voiceover and in movies and stage, all of it.

David Hall [00:25:55]:
Yeah. And as we're talking about public speaking, you're saying it's very powerful for public speaking sometimes just to make a pause.

Lee Schneider [00:26:04]:
Yeah, well, you know, it's part of claiming the space. There's a big difference in being energetic and trying to sound excited and filling every moment with actually carrying the energy of sounding interested in what you're talking about and not getting all frenetic. You don't have to do this all the time to make people interested in what you're talking about. And you don't have to pace back and forth on the stage. If you're doing that kind of presentation, you don't have to do that because it's distracting to the audience. It's very powerful when. If you're speaking or giving a presentation, if you stand and you don't or sit, whatever you're doing. But you don't have to move so much.

Lee Schneider [00:26:54]:
People are going to tune into you more and connect with you more. So my wife teaches public speaking to for people who are building specifically TEDx talks and other kind of talks. And one of the first bits of advice she gives is stop pacing. You don't need to stalk around the stage to get people's attention. It's better to focus on people in the audience and connect with them.

David Hall [00:27:22]:
Yeah, that's some great advice there. So just in general, like, how would you define what makes a great speech?

Lee Schneider [00:27:29]:
You know, some of it is just good old storytelling where there's a beginning, middle, and an end. And to dig into that a little bit more, there's a setup and a payoff. At the beginning of every great talk, you make a promise. It may not be explicitly a promise, but you make a promise that you're going to educate today or you're going to entertain today. Something's going to happen. And you even may make a very bold statement that later you can pay off and deliver on. You mentioned comedians. You know, a comedian will start often with a very.

Lee Schneider [00:28:10]:
With an outrageous statement at the beginning, and then they somehow deliver it and make it work at the end. You know, I. I recently began a keynote that I was giving with I'm an introvert, and it can be a challenge for me to get up in here to talk to all of you here. And that was my version of a bold statement in that context. And later at the end of the talk, I paid that off. I said, here's why. Being an introvert has actually helped me come to you and find some things in common that we can connect with. So it's what I refer to as a story arc.

Lee Schneider [00:28:48]:
You don't want to flatline. You don't want to kind of go into a monotone. You want to make a promise and deliver on that promise. And sometimes, often that means educating people or enlightening people not ending up in the same place that you started. That's kind of a bit abstract, but you'll see that a lot of great talks follow that pattern. There's a setup and a payoff.

David Hall [00:29:13]:
Yeah. How do introverts best prepare to give a speech or presentation? And in your mind, does that look different from the way an extrovert might?

Lee Schneider [00:29:24]:
Not sure about the differences, but I know that there are different ways of effectively preparing. What you need to do is embody the words in you, so you don't really need to refer to notes all that much. Now, the trick to that is practicing and not being afraid to practice too much, because you really can't practice too much. Some people might practice in front of a mirror. Some people might record themselves and listen back on a walk or something like that. But I find the single most important thing you can do is don't read it. Don't mumble your. You know, actually memorize the first minute maybe, or even the first two minutes, and really try to live that so you can speak that without, even if you leave out a sentence or occasionally that you can really embody that.

Lee Schneider [00:30:22]:
So for me, practice is actually delivering the talk aloud. And before you give it, deliver it to one person, maybe two. But a real person, whether it's a spouse, a friend, find somebody. Because it's going to feel very different to see another person reacting as you give that talk. It's just going to be different from doing it in your den or your bedroom or wherever you're doing it. So there are different practice strategies and different memorization strategies. I haven't asked an extrovert about their how they would do that differently. I imagine they'd be more willing to see the value in talking it out to another person and probably more willing to wing it a little bit.

David Hall [00:31:16]:
Yeah.

Lee Schneider [00:31:16]:
Which is, you know, I do believe in a bit of fun improvisation, but I do even more strongly believe in memorize the first minute or two because that's when the audience really needs to connect with you and for goodness sake, land it. Memorize the last page or the last paragraph. So you can really kind of do that dramatic thing of put the notes aside or just talk to people. It can be very powerful. If your face is in your notes the whole time, it's not going to work. But if you have to check your notes in the middle of a talk, depending on how long. So what? I mean, people check their notes. It's okay.

Lee Schneider [00:31:58]:
I recently gave the talk that I gave, I decided on index cards, and I kind of put the index card down on the table. Each one that I finished, I didn't need to stare at the index cards. I had kind of talking points, but I really made a point of that kind of set of setup and payoff structure of first, let's speak the first minute fluidly from memory and definitely speak the last minute or so fluidly from memory, because that's what people remember. They want to remember that last closing line.

David Hall [00:32:32]:
Yeah, I think that's powerful. The beginning and end. So what else do you do there? Do you just kind of create an Outline.

Lee Schneider [00:32:40]:
I've done it, you know, so many different ways. It kind of depends on the talk. You can use Zoom and other platforms. If you're doing that, they have what's the old teleprompter, you know, which is what pros use, where you can actually look right at the camera, but the words are up there. I, that doesn't work for me because I kind of get that staring look when I'm, you know, I'm reading the words. So I often will type out a script and then write out just about every word that I'm going to say and then kind of toss that away and make an outline that prompts me to remember what I need to say. I often will have a structure that I'm working from. I try not to, to depend on cards or a deck because there's a trap that you can easily get into.

Lee Schneider [00:33:30]:
Kind of a PowerPointitis where you start saying everything that's on your deck and people start reading your speech as you're speaking it, because everything you're saying is a bullet point. And you giving a collection of bullet points and calling it a speech is actually what most people do if they're not experienced. But it's not that interesting really. You'd rather maybe have a couple of points that are key points or maybe even a picture or something that's evocative and speak around that because you don't want people reading ahead literally to your PowerPoint and looking at your points that it makes they stop listening to you. And what you want, what makes it great is that you're talking to them. It's that human to human connection, which is what makes it so powerful and fun. So some of it is the way you memorize and how you memorize is the best way to deliver it.

David Hall [00:34:30]:
Yeah. So how do you decide when to use a PowerPoint and when not?

Lee Schneider [00:34:35]:
I find I need it almost always is if the talk is longer than 20 minutes or so.

David Hall [00:34:43]:
Okay.

Lee Schneider [00:34:43]:
I, and I don't use it as a road map. I use it as kind of an outline for myself and I use it to emphasize key points that I want people to remember. So I can even kind of point at it sometimes and, you know, reference it. On the other hand, for about 10, 11 years now, I've taught a 15 part course for the University of Southern California. And it's an hour and a half to two hours each lecture. And by now I know that pretty well. You know, I have a script and I have notes, but I can basically just speak that out. So I don't really need this script anymore.

Lee Schneider [00:35:23]:
And sometimes I'm horrified to see that I dropped a section or I brought a section up out of order. But basically, since that's so much part of me now and I've given that talk so often, I don't really need any written material any longer, even though I might have it as a backup just in case.

David Hall [00:35:41]:
Yeah, and sometimes it might be nice, like you said, there might be a picture or something that really adds. Adds to the speech.

Lee Schneider [00:35:48]:
Yeah, I mean, I like joke pictures sometimes or things that people don't expect. You know, like when, if I give a talk about lighting a cinema, lighting a scene in a movie, and I'll say, you know, there's a source of. Of lighting that's free and I'll have a picture of the sun, you know, it gets a chuckle. And it makes the point, though, that you can use natural lighting sometimes. And so, yeah, pictures are usually more powerful than a PowerPoint filled with bullet points.

David Hall [00:36:19]:
Yeah, yeah. And then what do you say? Lead to the person that lacks confidence in giving a speech, especially introverts, how can they gain confidence and in their speaking abilities?

Lee Schneider [00:36:32]:
I like in this context to go deep to think about your real motivations for why you are there. There's a consultant named Simon Sinek who gave a talk, a TED Talk called the Power of why and that why the capital W H Y Thinking about why you're really there, what's your motivation? What really matters to you? And I will be when I'm planning a talk or when I'm getting ready to go up in front of the audience to do it, I revisit that. I ask myself, why am I here? What do I want people to take away from this talk today that's working from the inside out. Now the opposite, working from the outside in, is if you can get into the room where you're going to give that talk a day before, a minute before, an hour before, a week before. If you can just stand in that spot, the podium or at the table and just look out over the imaginary audience, it's an amazingly empowering thing to do. It just. I've done that almost every time I've given a talk. I try to arrive early or if I can be there, even if it's a place in the office, you know, in the.

Lee Schneider [00:37:51]:
There's a conference room, I need to give the talk there just to be there, embody it. Know, like, oh, there's where I plug in the, the computer or here's how the, the audio Visual gizmo works or, you know, there's going to be a chair or there won't be a chair. All of that stuff from working from the outside in is very powerful. But I think both approaches inside to out and outside to in work together very well.

David Hall [00:38:20]:
Yeah. And that, that, you know, going to the place ahead of time, it's part of our preparation and it also can take away a lot of anxiety.

Lee Schneider [00:38:29]:
Yeah, definitely. And knowing. Doing a little tech run through. If you have any tech stuff that you're going to have to deal with. Well, you know, try it, you know, try your deck. You know, does the deck work on Zoom to. I usually carry. I've gotten in the habit of carrying the connecting cables.

Lee Schneider [00:38:47]:
I need to hook my laptop up to anything.

David Hall [00:38:50]:
Yeah, that's good. That's good.

Lee Schneider [00:38:51]:
You know, so if you show up and there's a big huge screen and someone says, well, we forgot the connector, I'll say, well, I. I have one in my bag.

David Hall [00:38:59]:
Yeah. So you've been involved with podcasts. How are podcasts a really good way for introverts to share their ideas?

Lee Schneider [00:39:09]:
I love podcasts as a rehearsal for thinking out loud. Dialogue. Dialogue. The, the core of a podcast is a conversation for most and you get to dialogue out your ideas. Someone's going to ask you questions and you've maybe rehearsed the answers. But I like the way a podcast takes you a little bit into your. To your edge. Like you've asked me questions that I might not have framed exactly the way that I thought about them two hours ago when I was thinking about this.

David Hall [00:39:47]:
Right.

Lee Schneider [00:39:47]:
That's good. That's great, you know, because if I do another podcast, I will have covered some of that territory. So I happen to love the, you know, and by the way, it doesn't have to be a video podcast. It can be great just to talk to people, just to have a great conversation. I find when I produce a podcast and I read the introduction to the guest, I'm pretty bad at reading it into the camera, like trying to read like a newscaster. I sometimes have to use those if I'm doing a YouTube production. But boy, do I like reading into a microphone. You know, I feel like I do so much better that I don't have to deal with the way I look or, you know, if I make a funny face or whatever it is about the, you know, the, the camera part of this.

Lee Schneider [00:40:34]:
So I'd say podcasts are great kind of, it's high value but low stress way of getting your ideas out there.

David Hall [00:40:45]:
Yeah. Yeah. So this has been a good podcast episode. Is there anything else that you'd like to add today, Lee?

Lee Schneider [00:40:53]:
No, I think you were really thorough. Like I said, you took me to some good edge places, which is good, you know, really, really valuable.

David Hall [00:41:00]:
Yeah. This has been a wonderful conversation. Where can people find out more about you and the work that you do?

Lee Schneider [00:41:07]:
Well, RedCupAgency.com is my education and production company. Like a red cup, A red cup agenc. And that is where you'll learn about what I call the Storyline Sessions. And I'm starting a Storyline Sessions edition for introverts to help introverts be better public speakers. And if you're interested in novels and fiction, my other life, Leashneiderbooks.com has all the information about the books that I'm writing.

David Hall [00:41:36]:
All right, sounds great. Thanks again, Lee.

Lee Schneider [00:41:38]:
You got it. Thanks so much.

Lee Schneider [00:41:40]:
Thank you so much for joining me. I appreciate you. I hope you take the time to explore other episodes and learn from other amazing guests. Remember, if you're interested in getting to know yourself better, there is now a free typefinder personality assessment on the Quiet and Strong website. This free assessment will give you a brief report including the four letter Myers Briggs code. I'll add a link in the show notes and I'd love to connect with you. Reach out@daviduyanstrong.com or check out the quietandstrong.com website which includes blog posts and links to social media for quiet and strong and much more. Send me topics or guests you would like to see on the show.

David Hall [00:42:20]:
So many great things about being an.

Lee Schneider [00:42:21]:
Introvert and so we need those to be understood. Get to know your introverted strengths and needs and be strong.