Ep 272 - Tools for Thriving in Life and Relationships with guest Dr. Lee Baucom

Are you curious about how introverts can tap into their natural strengths to build thriving lives and relationships? 

In this episode of The Quiet And Strong Podcast, host David Hall sits down with marriage coach, author, and fellow introvert Dr. Lee Baucom to explore powerful tools for success both personally and in connection with others. 

You’ll discover the real differences between introversion and shyness, why internal processing is such a valuable asset, and how to navigate marriage and teamwork when introvert and extrovert personalities intersect.

Whether you’re looking to understand yourself better, support a relationship, or build a fulfilling career as an introvert, this episode offers encouragement and actionable ideas. Tune in to embrace your introverted gifts, learn tools for thriving, and be strong.

Episode Link: QuietandStrong.com/272

Dr. Lee Baucom is a marriage coach, author, and founder of Save The Marriage. For over 25 years, he has helped individuals and couples navigate crisis, rebuild connection, and move from distance to clarity. Known for his practical, steady approach, Lee focuses on what actually works when a marriage feels stuck—especially when one spouse feels like they’re the only one trying.

Resources & Books:

• The Save the Marriage System
• Save the Marriage Podcast
• Immediate Relationship Help
• Unpause Your Marriage App
• Thrive Principles (book)
• The Forgive Process (book)
• More books by Dr. Lee Baucom
  
  
• Book to Business Blueprint (for authors building a business)

Transcript

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Dr. Lee Baucom [00:00:00]:
I'm married to an introvert who is a very outgoing introvert. She can have a conversation with anyone. And so if you look at her and me, I'm the quiet one. And when we get home, she is wiped out. So it's not the shyness, it's how I like to interact. I'm not the one to be the party in the room. But if you want to have a deep conversation, like, I don't want to talk about the weather. I would like to talk about what is important to you and what is your life purpose and where are you going in life.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:00:29]:
Those are the interesting things to me that I think are often true for introverts. And they get branded as we get branded, sometimes as shy, when it's not that at all. It's just the. There's no need to get that feedback.

David Hall [00:00:53]:
Hello and welcome to episode 272 of the Quiet and Strong podcast, especially for introverts. I'm your host, David hall, and the creator of quietandstrong.com. this is a weekly podcast dedicated to understanding the strengths and needs of introverts along with strategies for success. Introversion is not something to fix, but to be embraced. Normally, we air each episode on a Monday. Be sure to subscribe on your favorite platform, leave a review or rating that would mean a lot to me and help others find the show. Tell a friend about the podcast and help get the word out there that introversion is a beautiful thing. Dr.

David Hall [00:01:27]:
Lee Balcombe is a marriage coach, author and founder of Save the marriage. For over 25 years, he's helped individuals and couples navigate crisis, rebuild connection, and move from distance to clarity. Known for his practical, steady approach, Lee focuses on what actually works when a marriage feels stuck, especially when one spouse feels like they're the only one trying. All right, well, welcome to the Quiet and Strong podcast. Dr. Lee Balcombe. It's so good to have you on today, Lee.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:01:59]:
Oh, thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.

David Hall [00:02:01]:
Yeah, we're going to get into the great work you do, you know, especially as a marriage therapist. And you, you do a lot of things and we're going to talk about that. Tell us a little bit about yourself and your journey to the work that you're doing now.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:02:14]:
Yeah, so I was trained as a therapist and that was my training was back in the 80s, into the early 90s, and did master, a couple of master's degrees and a PhD training at that. And about the time I finished my PhD, much to my wife's surprise, I said, I Think I'm a coach. So I was looking at an article on coaching back before everybody was coaching. I finished my dissertation and actually was already working as a therapist at that point. But I knew I was already kind of acting like a coach in my approach. And so I did another three year training in coaching back then. And as I was doing that, one of the reasons I did that was because I was disappointed with how therapy was. The lack of help of therapy on marriages, the statistics were not good and I was frustrated with that throughout my training.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:03:03]:
So I decided I better write something about what I did think helped couples, given the fact that I'd been spending all this time criticizing it. And so that began to be the process of the save the marriage system, which was back in 99, that launched a business that I. It just kind of grew on its own. And it took me about two or three years to realize that. And so that's been the kind of the cornerstone of my work of working with couples really around the world. And since then I've done that work. I also am very interested in how people thrive in life. So I've done some writing and teaching in that area.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:03:41]:
And more recently I've started helping authors. Several years back I was having conversations with authors that led to me coaching them through their process of what do you do after the book? And so now I'm more formal with that. So I've got a couple of spheres in my life. I also do some coach training myself and, and, and work with coaches around the world to kind of connect with each other.

David Hall [00:04:02]:
Awesome. We are going to get into all of that. But of course, you're on the quietest, strong podcast and you are a fellow introvert. So how did you figure that out, that you were an introvert and did you have to learn to embrace it?

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:04:14]:
I did have to. So my older brother is an extrovert. And I remember this moment where he was other side of the door and I'm sure we'd had some fight or disagreement or whatever as little kids and I was happily in my room closing the door and playing by myself, and he was about to come apart. And I just thought it was odd that here I was happily playing and I realized that that was kind of a common theme. My mom is an introvert, my dad's an extrovert, my older brother's an extrovert. So I noticed that there was this. I was fine not talking with people and I was fine doing my own thing. And a lot of my pursuits were very individual.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:04:56]:
I, when I was a teenager, was a performing magician, and I was happy to disappear to actually the Unfinished attic, to practice my magic without anybody being around. And. And I. So I recognized even then that I was kind of self contained if I needed to be. And so I guess the point when I put a name on it was not until college I was taking a course in Jungian psychology. And so obviously from that there was a lot of talk about introvert and extrovert. And in the middle of that class, I went on a spring break with my brother and my brother's at that time, girlfriend and family, and we went to Florida. And I remember this long trip down and this long trip back.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:05:39]:
And in the trip back, my brother starts this theological debate with me. And so we're in the midst of this conversation. He'd asked me a question. I would just, you know, I process it, give him my answer. And when we got back, he was getting frustrated with it. But when we got back, we got out of the car and he unrolled the window as I was walking away and said, oh, by the way, I agree with what you said in the beginning. And I was sitting there, I walked away going, we just spent hours with you debating me. And at the end you tell me that you actually agree with me.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:06:13]:
What is that about? And so I was carrying that conversation and I go into class and we start this conversation, conversation in that class about introversion and extroversion. I went, oh my gosh, I'm the introvert, he's the extrovert. Now I understand that he just is processing out loud and all of that conversation was just him processing to get to his final answer. I gave my final answer eight hours before because I was processing it internally. And so that helped us, because now he knows to kind of say, okay, how did you get to that? That answer? I'll say something. How'd you get to that? And I'll say nothing to him until I know he's at the final answer. I'll converse with him, but I'm not going to take anything from that until he gets to the final answer. So not until college did I put a formal term on it.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:07:03]:
But I've always known that, and I've always been comfortable with it. It's sometimes been a challenge, though, in the extrovert role that I exist in. And so that's been kind of a place to figure out how to play a part when I'm, for instance, on a podcast and needing to be more outgoing, or when I was doing public speaking a lot, you know, I'm on the stage, and I would have to assume an identity. Not that I gave up my introversion, but that I could project outward in a different way.

David Hall [00:07:34]:
Yeah, yeah. Such a great story. And that occurs, you know, in our own families, in our work, and our, you know, in our. Our personal lives.

David Hall [00:07:43]:
It's.

David Hall [00:07:44]:
And it's just still. This is why I do the podcast, because it's still so misunderstood. You have a natural way of being. Your brother had a natural way of being. Neither is going to change, but we can develop understanding for sure. You know, our personalities come to us very naturally, you know, and we can also learn to understand them. You know, you talked about public speaking. I used to be terrified.

David Hall [00:08:07]:
I'm not now, because I just realized as an introvert, I need to prepare, you know, and I need to plan, you know, if I need a break, you know, like. Like right now I'm enjoying talking to you, but I'm not doing anything right after this, you know, so. So there's definitely different strategies that we can employ and understand, and we're going to talk some more about this, too. But what's the strength you have because you're an introvert?

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:08:30]:
Well, that internal processing means that I'm really good at. I don't need somebody to bounce the ideas off of. I can think through things and get them down. So in my writing, that's a natural place to be. I'm having a conversation with myself as I'm writing. I've watched the difference. So my. My parents are still married in their mid-80s, and my mom now has figured out that sometimes she has to say to my dad, you just need to go to the other room, because he's the extrovert she's trying to read.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:08:58]:
And he needs that, you know, he needs to. To kind of bounce things off of. And when he's getting ready to do something, he'll often just verbalize it out loud. I don't have that need. I can sit back and do my thing. So in my small office, doing a podcast episode, creating content, whatever I need to do, I'm good. I'm happy to do that. And can be by myself for an extended amount of time to get all of that done, which would be a challenge for an extrovert.

David Hall [00:09:26]:
Yeah, I relate so much to that. And, you know, sometimes I've been in work situations where everything has to be brainstormed in a group, and there is value in groups brainstorming. So I'm not saying that, but also, just also understand that I'm going to come up with some great ideas just being on my own as well. And that's, that's definitely something I've had to help people understand.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:09:49]:
Well. And that's one of the things that I've noticed in a work environment. Many times people would say, you're so quiet, but when you say something, it's. And I'm like, that's because when I say something, I'm done. You're got. You guys are just bouncing this stuff off the wall. I, I have thought it through and delivered it. And that is a something that I watch in brainstorming situations.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:10:09]:
So I did a lot of consulting with some smaller businesses, medium sized businesses. One of them, the president, hired me simply to help him process it with his staff, whatever was going on. And so I'd go to their meetings, weekly meetings, and he would start talking and he was an extrovert. And I remember he would go, I think we should, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And they would all start writing down and they were just off doing their thing, at which point he would go, I think we should. And it was something completely different. And they were off doing it. And I realized that we, all of us, except for him, were introverts in the room.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:10:47]:
They thought he was giving their final thing. And so I got to the point where I would watch them start to do their thing. I go, wait, pins down. And I would sit there and have a conversation modeling for them. And I would go. Until he would go, yeah, that's not really a good idea. And he just needed a process to get to that conclusion. And so then I began to help them understand that they needed to do the same for him, to not buy in to the first thing out of his mouth, which is what extroverts do, because whatever's coming out of our mouth is the final thing and not the first thing.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:11:19]:
So that process has been helpful also in my marriage work, when I'll see a couple that's an introvert extra extrovert marriage to help them understand that it's not stubbornness and flightiness, it's introversion and extroversion that is dominating their conversation.

David Hall [00:11:35]:
Yeah, absolutely. And what you describe is where the name of this podcast came from. Quiet and strong. It's like often like you described yourself, people have told me, you know, you're not speaking a lot, but when you do speak, you know, people are listening and that's where the name came from. So I relate to that as well.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:11:54]:
It is sometimes interesting to. When you, when people don't recognize that. And you. You can see it happening. You know, I've been in. In places where people thought that I was withdrawn or not paying attention or. And I was, I was paying attention. I was just inside processing it, getting ready for what comes out.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:12:11]:
And sometimes I would have to make sure that that was clear. And so while I'm processing, I may be even looking like I'm more attentive, even though I am in my head processing along.

David Hall [00:12:22]:
Yeah.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:12:23]:
To get to where I needed to. Sometimes you play the game.

David Hall [00:12:26]:
Yeah. And you know, something that I. I needed to realize to gain confidence myself is that processing is a gift. It absolutely is a gift.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:12:35]:
Yeah.

David Hall [00:12:36]:
You know, and sometimes we just need to help other people understand it and of course, first understand it ourselves.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:12:41]:
Yeah, for sure.

David Hall [00:12:42]:
And Lee, on this show, we also bust myths. Is there introvert myth you want to bust today?

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:12:48]:
Yeah. So introverts are not shy. That's not the same thing. That's the one that I see very frequently now. I think there are levels. So I'm married to an introvert who is a very outgoing introvert. She can have a conversation with anyone. And so if you look at her and me, I am the quiet one.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:13:06]:
And when we get home, she is wiped out. So it's not the shyness. It's how I like to interact. I'm not the one to be the party in the room. But if you want to have a deep conversation, like, I don't want to talk about the weather. I would like to talk about what is important to you and what is your life purpose and where you're going in life. Those are the interesting things to me that I think are often true for introverts. And they get branded as we get branded, sometimes as shy when it's not that at all.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:13:34]:
It's just there's no need to get that feedback.

David Hall [00:13:39]:
Yeah, yeah, same here. I'm married to a fellow introvert. A lot of people would say she's an extrovert, but she needs her space. She's a deep thinker. She's a creative person. And, you know, she gets drained, too. So it's, it's just, it's fascinating, you know, and even that's another myth that I bust too. Is it? We're not all the same.

David Hall [00:13:57]:
We have some things in common as introverts, but we, you know, we have lots of different factors in our personality.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:14:03]:
Yeah. I always talk about the energy. That's what I look for. Where do you get your energy? If you get your energy from being with People, you're an extrovert. If you get your energy from being away from people, you're an introvert. And so when I am with people, I need to recover. My brother, when he is isolated, he needs to recover. You know, that's.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:14:22]:
That's just the. Where do we get our energy? Where do we plug in the battery?

David Hall [00:14:26]:
Yeah. Where can I go find someone to talk to? This is probably what he's saying to himself. Where can I bounce some ideas off of somebody? Yeah, I say that, too. And also just that, you know, we turn inward more often than not. You know, we're in. In our inner worlds, which, again, we've been talking about. And it's a great strength.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:14:44]:
Yeah. Many times I'll. You know, something will happen. And I thought I was going to be going somewhere with a lot of people, and they're like, oh, it's canceled. I'm like, okay, I'm good. You just gave me a gift.

David Hall [00:14:54]:
Yeah, yeah. Right, right. Don't get too upset. Lee, you're the author of several books. Tell us a little bit about your writing.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:15:01]:
So I started writing. Well, it goes all. Here's. Here's the confession. I am not the natural. Right. Well, it turns out I am. But I am not what you would think of as the writer.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:15:12]:
I'm dyslexic. I. They finally figured that out when I was in fourth grade. I'd fooled my teachers for three years, and they finally. My fourth grade teacher figured it out. So writing has always been something of a challenge to me in writing, the way they wanted me to in high school, you know, when you had to do the idea, the outline, the note cards, the rough draft, I could not do that. I had to write it out. And so they would give the assignment.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:15:39]:
I would write the whole paper. Then when they wanted the outline, I'd go take my paper and pull out the outline. They wanted the note cards. I'd go to my paper and pull out the note cards and. And I always felt like I was doing it wrong. And then I got to college, and I had a professor who said, you know, you. You could be a great writer, but I think this is your first draft that you turned in. And then it's because I just had no confidence in my writing.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:16:04]:
So I realized that I actually had some skills there. He helped develop those. And then I go to grad school where I'm writing all the time. One of the things that I realized is the way that I process is by writing. That was true in grad school. It was True. Why? I wrote the first book, and since then I've been trying to answer the questions that come to me. So the books themselves are.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:16:27]:
So, for instance, when I started, I've got several books on relationships, but I also have written several books on. One is Thrive Principles. I just wanted to say, here are ways that people thrive. And so out of that came people coming to me going, okay, I'm doing that, and it's not working. Why not? I'm like, because you're breaking these, what I call the immutable laws. You're breaking those. You think you're doing these other things, but you're actually breaking the law. So I wrote another one.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:16:54]:
And then through my work as a coach and a therapist, I realized that people just could not figure out how to let go of painful events. So I wrote my how do. How do I help people forgive? The forgive process. And so it's been the same thing for the relationship books. You know, I was working with people on how to save their marriage. That was an early one. And then they were like, okay, yeah, but there was infidelity. Okay, well, here's how you can recover from infidelity.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:17:22]:
And then people would say, okay, well, there's nothing really going on, but I just feel like giving up. That's the marriage fail point. And so on and on it would go. I would just continue to answer the questions as they came up. And. And really, that's been the heart of my business work, too. Like when I kept getting the same thing, I would say, okay, that's a module for the program, or that's a new course, or that's a new training. And.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:17:46]:
And let it evolve from the conversation. So conversations give me kind of the questions, and then I spend my time answering them.

David Hall [00:17:54]:
Awesome. And you also help other authors tell us about that.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:17:59]:
Yeah. So when I wrote that first book in 99, it went live in 99 and pretty quickly started gaining a little momentum. And I thought, oh, that's pretty cool. I can go see people and have this little income on the side. And then my phone started ringing, and I started doing coaching with people around the world, thinking, oh, that's just a side thing too. And it started. Started building up. And so that created the business that I still have that has been going on now for, you know, 26 years and 20.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:18:29]:
Almost 20. Well, 26 years. 26 and a half years. And that business came because I allowed the book to be the beginning point. And so then I started doing events with my publisher where there were other authors. I was at his first one. And after that I said, hey, I'm just up the road. I'm happy to come help.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:18:48]:
So I started helping them put it on, which put me in contact with other authors, and they would give me the books of these authors so I'd have a clue who was going to be there. And I remember at one of those, I was sitting with him going, so what now? And he said, what do you mean, what now? And I said, I mean, you've got. The book's done. What now? And he said, the book's done. And I said, okay, but what are you going to do from that? He said, hopefully it'll sell. I went, okay. So we parted ways, you know, through the event and the last night we had a big get together. And he came over and he sat down and he said, why were you asking that question? And I said, because you've got a lot in that book that could be a business.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:19:28]:
And I thought that's where you were headed. He says, never crossed my mind. And I said, okay, well, that's why I was asking the question. Because here's the thing. If you're an author and someone reads your book and they get to the end of it and they're like, oh, that's great. What now? And there's nothing there. That's a lost opportunity for the reader because they're ready to grow. That's a lost opportunity for the world because they need people who are growing.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:19:53]:
We do. And that's a lost opportunity for you because that could be a business. A lot of people think that the book was it. And my thing is the book is the starting point. So I've had these conversations with authors where they're like, well, I guess I'm about 80, 90, done. And I'm like, you're 5% done. I mean, your book is done. That's.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:20:13]:
You're 5% of. Of that. And I would say even less now that I've been doing this for so long. So what I help people do is figure out how to take that book to the business as the beginning point of the book and build from that, that place without being overwhelmed, Without. I mean, and this is so true for most authors that I meet are introverts. Not all, but a lot are. And it's overwhelming to think, oh my gosh, I've got to do all this social media and I've got to build a website and I've got to get out there on interviews and blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, the list is long and they're overwhelmed.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:20:50]:
So overwhelmed that they do nothing. So we start with the idea that the book can build a business and then we take it one task at a time to build a business that both fits their lifestyle and delivers the message they want to the world.

David Hall [00:21:07]:
Yeah, and often it, the book on its own isn't going to go very far. It's really helps you do other things, you know, whether it's coaching or speaking or many other things, you know.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:21:22]:
So yeah, I mean the sad fact is that the average book, across all books, the average book sells less than 200 copies. So that's, I mean you think of, I get my family and my friends and their family and friends to buy the book and where do we go after that? And so that you're balancing out the million plus sellers with all the other books too. So recognize that 200 would, that's a good run. And, and generally they say if you can clear a thousand, you're doing some good work. So the book, the book sales, if you're counting on that, you're likely to be disappointed. Very likely to be disappointed. But that's because you're depending on the book for the wrong thing. And so what we're trying to do is say the book starts a process and, and here's where it, it, it grows on itself.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:22:14]:
If you create the, the business from the book, the business also sells the book. So it, it becomes this little cycle where people who buy the book are interested in the business, having the business sells the book and around and around we go until you have a sustainable business and a sustainable lifestyle.

David Hall [00:22:32]:
Yeah, absolutely. So what, what's just in a nutshell, what would you say to that author that hasn't really started thinking about the business yet, the business part of it?

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:22:44]:
There are a couple of things that I think are important. One is to ask the question kind of what is my core message and how do I deliver that? I consider that the framework and sometimes even though you've written the book, you're too close to it. And so you have to kind of step back. An introvert gift to being able to step back and reflect a little bit and, and see the framework. So having your framework clear helps you to know what you're going to deliver. I do help authors find their framework because that's sometimes a stuck point for them. That's kind of one of my hidden skills. I've been doing that since I had professors sending people who were writing their thesis and the dissertation to me.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:23:22]:
And I was like, why are you sending them to me. And it was because I could say to them, oh, here's what you're trying to do. And I would hand them the framework that they're trying to. And it turns out I can do that with lots of books where it's not as clear in there. But once people have a framework and they know what they're delivering, then they are asking a couple of questions. And one of those is, how does it fit for me? So I'll tell you about one of the people that I've worked with. He came to me and I said, so, what are you going to do with your book? Pretty common question for me to ask. And he went, well, I'm going to do public speaking.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:23:57]:
That was about the tone I got from him. I'm like, that's doesn't sound too overwhelming to me. I said, well, that's an underwhelming response. Tell me what's going on. And he said, well, I understand that's what you're supposed to do. I'm like, okay, where did you get that? He said, well, I have a friend who wrote a book and he's very successful now in public speaking. And he told me that's what I need to do. And I said, okay, but you don't sound like you're embracing it.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:24:21]:
Tell me what you've done. And he'd spent thousands of dollars getting his PR material set up, playing, paying for some publicity, contacting people, and here flat. And I said, tell me what's going on. And he said, well, I don't really like leaving home. I can do it. I can travel, but I don't really like doing that. I said, okay. And he said, I don't really like public speaking.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:24:42]:
I can do it. I think I'm okay at it, but I don't like doing it. I said, okay, so let's say that you're successful at this. Like your book allows you to do the speaking, and you're five years from now and you're traveling around the country and you're giving the speeches. How are you? And he said, oh, my gosh, that sounds miserable, because he'd forgotten the other piece of this. You have to ask the question, what does my temperament, my natural temperament and my natural desires, what does that look like in a business? There are different forms the business could take, and if you don't account for that, you're likely to walk into the wrong one for you. And so it's got to be something that'll support your message, support you, and support the person who's receiving the message.

David Hall [00:25:23]:
Yeah, I love that because it's. Yeah. Your friend can say, if my book led to public speaking, of course you should do that. But you have to think, well, what do I want? You know, and, and that's the question that I think is, is important. What do you want? But then how do you get there with, with who you are and like you said, your desires, you know, how do you get there?

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:25:42]:
Yeah. And so then we follow a process of just doing one thing per week. We. I do an issue process. You get an issue that says, here's what you're working on, here's what you need to do, take that step. And it's easy enough that anybody can take a step. I talked with somebody else who had written a book and was just kind of beside herself and I said, what's going on? And she said, well, I know I need to build a business from this. And so I got into this seven figure Internet business course and now I've got a list of 30 some things to do.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:26:14]:
And I said, how's it going? She said, I haven't done any of them. She was too overwhelmed by it. And so that's not a process for success, but one thing per week. That's. Most people can handle that pretty well if they're dedicated to it. They absolutely can master that. So one thing per week breaks it down into something that builds on itself. So we're not looking for virality, which is you can't make something viral very easily anymore, but you can make it sustainable and something that continues to build.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:26:44]:
And if it happens to catch a virus somewhere out there and goes wild, great. But don't count on that. Just like we don't count on it being a best seller for the, the sales process. That's not where this happens. It's building something sustainable a piece at a time.

David Hall [00:27:01]:
Yeah, that's great. So one of the books you held up was about thriving. I. I'm pretty sure that's probably a theme throughout all your writing. So what is thriving and what's some secrets to it?

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:27:15]:
So that is the, the thing that I've focused on a lot of asking the question, how do people thrive in life? And there are some things that are not in our control. I don't have control over the family. I was born into the socioeconomics of that I do have a choice of how I respond to that. So I'm often talking to people about are you focusing on the things you can control? And, and there are really only three things we can control. And that's our, our aspirations, what we aim for, what we're moving towards, our attitude, how we decide whether we're going to figure something out or give up on it. And our actions. What do we do and say? What do we don't do? Don't say. So aspirations, attitude, actions, which by the way is a framework.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:27:54]:
So we just named one of those ways. I put that out. So I look at whether somebody's doing that. If they are trying to control things that they cannot control, it's going to be tough to thrive. But where I find it to be particularly important is for people to choose. How do they want to show up in life, what values do they want, want to hold, what meaning and purpose do they want? And behind all of that, do they feel like that they are contributing and making the world better? If they're working on those areas, they're likely to be building a thriving life.

David Hall [00:28:25]:
Absolutely. And so you're also a fellow podcaster and you have a long time podcast, Save the Marriage podcast. How. How long have you been doing that? You probably, you told me and probably, you know, I don't know that I've had a guest on that's had a longer one for sure.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:28:42]:
Yeah. So I think, I think it was 2012. 2012, 2013, right in there. Because right after that I started the Thriveology podcast too. And Thriveology podcast ran for 480 episodes before I went. I don't have time to do this too. The Save the Marriage podcast, we're at episode right now. We're at episode 597.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:29:02]:
And then I just started after the book, which is about how do you build a business after the book? And we're about 15 episodes into that, I think. So that one's in its infancy. Save the Marriage has. It's. It. I mean, according to the statistics in the top 1% of podcasts. And part of it is because I started so early, you know, there wasn't a lot of competition then. And if you wanted a marriage podcast, I was it.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:29:27]:
And people have stuck with it. I've. I talk with people. I mean, it still kind of shocks me when they're like, I've heard every one of your episodes. I'm like, bless your heart, I'm so sorry, I don't know what to tell you.

David Hall [00:29:42]:
So what are the comments? So you were actually running two podcasts at the same time?

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:29:47]:
Currently am. But it's.

David Hall [00:29:49]:
Right, right. But I mean the other, the Thriveology one was.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:29:52]:
Yeah, the Thriveology. When I think 480 episodes before I paused it. And I keep intending to go back to it. And that was just. I was interviewing people and then doing solo things about how do you thrive in life? And just different topics. Yeah.

David Hall [00:30:05]:
Okay. And what's some common topics that you have on the Save the Marriage podcast?

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:30:11]:
So I focus on three areas when working to save a marriage. So one of those books, the, the how to save your marriage in three simple steps. These are the three steps is you're working on connecting with your spouse. And by the way, when I say simple, I don't mean easy, but simple means direct. So connecting with your spouse, changing yourself and creating a new path are the three Cs, again, a framework. So connecting with your spouse is. Because I believe that the core of marriage problems is actually disconnection. And a lot of the things that come to the therapy office are actually symptoms of the disconnection.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:30:46]:
If you're fighting over money, that's really about disconnection and how you're not working together as a team and seeing that resources as a we, for instance. And so people get into what I call a pause button marriage where they. That their marriage is secure enough that they can now turn their attention to parenting or to work or aging parents or whatever else is out there. And when they do that, they don't recognize that they are disconnecting the connection that they spent so much time building up. They hit the pause button going, we'll get back to us after these events happen, after the kids are out of diapers or in school or out of school or whatever, after my career gets to this point or this point or this point. And it's always sometime in the future that we'll get back to us us. Because they build habits of disconnection. So connecting with your spouse is important, but I also believe that people stagnate in adulthood.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:31:39]:
I'm pretty good research to back me up that we as adults, when we hit a certain point, we're like, okay, we're done. It's. It's not true. But we tend to stop growing. And so the change is not about, there's something wrong with you. As much as we all grow stagnant, and how can we make sure that we're in a growth cycle? So Ray Kroc talks about one of my favorite quotes. You're either green and growing or ripe and rotting. That's the two options.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:32:06]:
And so this is the how do you need to continue to grow? How can you step into that and show up better in your relationship? Because when you stop growing, you stagnate, you're going to show up poorly in the relationship. And the last one is creating a new path, and that is the one of being a we, of seeing it as we're in this together. We are a team team. And that's a mentality piece and we talked about with money, but it fits in so many other places. How do I think about decisions? Do I go? How does this affect us versus what do I get versus what you get? So that path is about building a we.

David Hall [00:32:40]:
Yeah. And just on growth, it's like I. I think that it goes on for our lifetimes. You know, we can always get better, we can always learn more. And, you know, definitely in a relationship, we can always keep building that.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:32:56]:
Yeah, there's always more, always new layers in. In life and in relationships. So the. So back to your question about the podcast. Those are the three areas that I continue to return to in different ways. And those. Those begin to be the backbone of how I think through the episodes, I sometimes talk about where we get stuck ourselves and how we make assumptions, for instance, how we use faulty thinking. All of that is designed to help us master the connection, the changing and the creating.

David Hall [00:33:26]:
Yeah. Yeah. There's so much we can talk about, but I know an important topic is relationships, and whether you and I said we were both married to an introvert or introverts and extroverts together or even extroverts. What are some things that you've learned in your work working, especially with couples or, you know, people in work environments? What. What do we need to understand about each other?

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:33:52]:
Yeah. So one of the things that I believe about people, period, is that people do the best they can given where they are. That is not a. People are optimal all the time because we're not, but where we are, where. What I'm doing right now, I've never had someone come into my office after all these years of going, you know, I'm really not giving it what I could. They might say that guiltily, but in reality, once we dig down, they really are trying hard. And what they have to try with may not be what they need. Sometimes we need a roadmap.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:34:21]:
But giving people the benefit of the doubt is one of my. My things, especially in marriage. Can you give your spouse the benefit of the doubt? Thinking is what I talk about, and that is assuming that they are doing their best and that what may be hurtful to me doesn't mean a minute to be hurtful. And by the way, if they meant it to Be hurtful if you truly know that. Not. That's an assumption you're building in because you're hurt. That's a problem. That's a toxic person.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:34:46]:
And that's different than the common kind of common ordinary marriage crisis, which is really built on two people who are reading into and misunderstanding and not showing up for each other in very destructive ways. But that's different than, you know, having an evil spouse. Used to sit in my office and somebody would say, they tell me about their spouse, and I'm thinking, this person's coming in with horns and a spiky tail, and then the person come in and be lovely. And I'm like, what's wrong with this thing? Why are you perceiving them that way? So how we perceive is often based on how we are the kind of the hero of our own story and how we write our own story. And so understanding that is an important part of giving grace in a relationship and then working through the issues. So another thing that I truly understand is that there's no way to avoid conflict. People do that, but there's no healthy way to avoid conflict. And so I suggest that people see conflict as a way of growing the relationship, finding a better way forward.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:35:53]:
Two people saying, we see it differently. How can we use that to further our relationship? The best relationships are the ones that see each other as a we. But that doesn't mean they lost themselves. They bring their best self to that. Like being on a team, on an athletic team, you know it. You're there to play your best to win the game, not there to get every shot, not there to walk away because you're upset because, you know, they didn't do it your way, but to play as a team to win. And that means you show up as the best player you can be.

David Hall [00:36:29]:
Absolutely. It's funny. While you're talking, I joke that, you know, I tell my wife if I say something, you know, and you could take it a couple different ways, choose the good one, choose the best intention from me, you know.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:36:43]:
Yeah, well, and that's. There's a quote, and I can't get it quite right. But don't attribute to evil what could just be, you know, misinformation or misunderstanding. And a lot of times I think that's the case that we often see. See things for the worst when they are really a lack of more ignorance than anything else. So one of my core breaks from therapy was realizing that when couples are in a crisis, they don't need a. So how do you feel about that approach. They need a roadmap.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:37:13]:
The, the how do you feel about it? Approach, which is how what we're taught in therapy gets stuck in the emotions but doesn't give any methods to get somewhere else. And very few people have a good roadmap to have, have a successful marriage. That we don't do that as a, as a culture, we don't do that as a society. And so people go ill prepared into a marriage and then they do on the job training with no one to correct the mistakes they're making along the way. So no surprise that we have people who find themselves deeply entrenched in problems and no roadmap to get there. And so that's the other thing I've been doing with books all these years is trying to create roadmaps for people to find a way through difficult times.

David Hall [00:37:54]:
Yeah. And you know, you've been talking about that. You, you also do coaching because you've seen ways that therapy might not work. What are some other tools that you use to help people, you know, build connections?

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:38:08]:
So I have a lot of approaches for that connection and how people understand it. One of the dangers that, that I watch is when people feel disconnected, they often will either flee the scene that's spacing or they chase after their spouse. They, they try to pursue them. And so the chaser, spacer dynamic is an important one for couples to realize when they're under stress, they're likely to fall into that, that role rather than being a pacer of choosing how you're going to be invitational in connection. I watched the chasers who like, we're going to do date night, we're going to go on the romantic weekend, we're going to go to the couples encounter weekend. We're, you know, we're going to do all these big things in a relationship that doesn't have connection. Those are great and connected relationships, but probably not even necessary there. They probably take care of themselves.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:38:58]:
I mean, very connected couples. My wife and I were like, let's go to the movies tonight and let's get a meal. We don't have to go, okay, it's date night. So we're gonna, you know, that's, that's the artificial piece that often comes when people are disconnected. But it's, it's creating too much pressure on the connection. So it doesn't, it goes sideways instead of furthering the connection.

David Hall [00:39:21]:
Yeah. So what's the pacer then?

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:39:24]:
So let's use that date kind of idea. Instead of going, we're going to do Date night. And we're going to dress up and we're going to go do. And that's going to break down, and the next week they're going to not be able to find a babysitter, and then they're not going to be able to find the diamond and it's going to derail. So rather than that, you might do something like, hey, I just heard about this restaurant up the road that has really good sandwiches. Would you like to go try it out? I'm going to go there for lunch. That's not a date, it's an invitation. And I'll use the same thing that you might do with a friend.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:39:54]:
Right. I could say, hey, David, you want to go grab a cup of coffee? And if you said, no, I can't do that, I got to finish up this podcast thing, you would still go. That was really nice of Lee to ask. There's still a connection embedded in that, but it's there. It's a low risk offer. So I'm going to go try out the new sandwich place. Would you like to go with me? That's an easy yes or no, but it's an invitation. So the invitational piece of connection allow somebody to go, that was nice for them to ask, and no, I can't do it.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:40:26]:
Or yes, and you go have a light time. So that brings another piece of the pacing is to decide not to have the big, serious, deep relationship talk where you've thought out your talking points and you're going to convince them that we can get through this. And because they're having the same talking points to prove to you that you can't get through this. And then you have two different agendas going. It's kind of like reading a play, but the other person's reading from another play and it never meshes. So that's another way that we people often fall into the chaser thing. Pacing means that you build a connection a little at a time. And so I have three dimensions of connection.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:41:05]:
And when I explain that to people, I'm like, those are three targets. And so they'll say, well, what specifically do I do? And my response is, not knowing what you're doing right now, just a little bit more. Because that's what pacing does. You do it a little bit more. If you're training for a marathon, you don't say, I'm going to cut five minutes from my mile. You say, let me see if I can increase that and do that mile 20 seconds faster. That's a little bit more. Let Me see if I can take that hill a little faster.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:41:34]:
That's a little bit more.

David Hall [00:41:37]:
Yeah, I love that. And, you know, there's definitely introverts out there that want to build more connection with others, and it's just like, just start. Just do something more than you have been doing. I love that.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:41:53]:
So let's go with that. You. You asked me about the myth of being an introvert. One of the myths is that introverts don't need people.

David Hall [00:42:01]:
Oh, yeah.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:42:02]:
And. And we do need people.

David Hall [00:42:04]:
Yeah.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:42:05]:
And the connection is true. I mean, the. The longest longevity study, so the longest study looking at how long people live and what helps that is that people with strong relationships are the ones that live the longest. It's not. That's not about being an extrovert or an introvert. It's about the fact that we all need relationships that feed us, that give us what we need, and that we are invested in both ways. And that's true for introverts or extroverts.

David Hall [00:42:32]:
Yeah. It's so funny, whether it be a potential guest or someone I'm speaking with, you know, people will tell me, well, I can't be an introvert because I like people. And I'm like, well, I like people too. And I am definitely an introvert.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:42:45]:
That's the difference between introvert and sociopath.

David Hall [00:42:47]:
Right, Right. Yeah. You could probably speak a lot to this, but there's very few people that don't want connection. And, you know, as introverts, we might want things connection in different doses. We do need some alone time. We don't want to. I. I don't know very many people that want to be alone all the time.

David Hall [00:43:04]:
That's just rare. So, yeah, that's a good myth to bust. We bust that one.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:43:07]:
Yep.

David Hall [00:43:08]:
Wait, this has been a wonderful conversation. We've gone a lot of different places and the time's gone by quickly. Is there anything. Yeah, it has been. I've enjoyed it thoroughly. Is. Is there anything else you want to add today?

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:43:20]:
I think we've covered a lot of ground. A lot to chew on.

David Hall [00:43:23]:
Yeah, for sure. And then, of course, where can people find out more about you and the great work you do, whether it's your two podcasts or your books or helping authors or your practice.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:43:35]:
Yeah. So if you are an author and you're trying to figure out how to build a business, that would be@booktobusinessblueprint.com and that's 2o, not the number 2. Booktobusinessblueprint.Com there's actually a free source there on a starter map to help you figure that out. But there and the podcast and everything else. And if you got hooked by the information on relationships, Save the Marriage. You can find the Save the Marriage podcast@creatively savethemarriagepodcast.com savethemarriagepodcast.com but if you need immediate help, that's@savethemarriage.com and then more recently I've started the Unpause app for people who realize that their their relationship is paused and they want to unpause it and get to a different place. And that is at unpause your marriage.com unpauseyourmarriage.com and if you go to any of those places, you're probably going to or look me up on the Internet kind of there.

David Hall [00:44:25]:
All right, awesome. Thanks again, Lee.

Dr. Lee Baucom [00:44:27]:
Thank you.

David Hall [00:44:28]:
Thank you so much for joining me. I appreciate you. I hope you take the time to explore other episodes and learn from other amazing guests. Remember, if you're interested in getting to know yourself better, there is now a free type Finder personality assessment on the Quiet and Strong website.

David Hall [00:44:44]:
This free assessment will give you a

David Hall [00:44:46]:
brief report including the four letter Myers Briggs Code. I'll add a link in the show notes and I'd love to connect with you. Reach out@daviduyanstrong.com or check out the quietandstrong.com website which includes blog posts and links to social media for quiet and strong and much more. Send me topics or guests you would like to see on the show. So many great things about being an introvert and so we need those to be understood. Get to know your introverted strengths and needs and be strong.